Discussion about MUME, clients, actions
posted by Khorak, Kohr, K
2000-09-15 20:40:13
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This is not a log. ;)
I get right to the point.



First. I fear that MUME is little more than slow-paced Action-Quake with bad controls. 

People fail to see that it is not "clients" that should be banned, but "need for clients".
Instead of screaming why people are using actions/clients, you should start thinking,
why are they doing this, what is wrong with MUME, that this kind of thing is needed,
what could we do to improve MUME and gameplay in general.



Let me quote here:

Cur: 
	"Several years ago, people risked having their chars deleted if they left them running 
as bots, responding automatically to narrates of 'trans' with cast 'trans' (narrater). 
The reason? Automated characters, bots and characters running more or less on client-programmed autopilots 
were illegal and nobody wanted them playing the game."


- hmm.. very well then. I remember those times. Kienna even got demoted for this..


Cur:
	"Since then, people have tried increasingly to circumvert any rules
to this effect. Having automatic triggers, 'actions' such as automatically
hitting or following and hitting became popular, although frowned upon by the
majority of MUME players, until they were banned. Even after they were banned,
several 'bad apples' were discovered, players who deliberately used actions
in spite of the ban. After this, actions for many other things were used
increasingly often. Actiontracking, actionbashing, actionfleeing and
actiondoorclosing spring to mind, but there were other kinds."


- Strategic battle desisions, not spamming commands should be characters mission.


- CLIENT: AUTOFLEE

- PROBLEM: not solvable in current system.


- First I really dont like that old diku part how flee is done. 
- (random direction)
- What is wrong with character understanding where he wants to evade from battle->
- (success speed is dependant how engaged character is),
- but u dont have to spam it. 
Your character tries until succeeds. 
_____________________________________________________________________________________

- CLIENT: AUTOHIT, AUTOFOLLOW AND HIT

- SUGGESTION:
- What is wrong (from characters point of view) wanting to attack every enemy on sight?

- make options-   autohit
		  autocast
- mume variable=  favourite target/target
	
- you should be able to engage any enemy player that is entering the room, 
- because your character is ABLE to recognize the enemy and is willing to attack any
- enemy. 
 
(The way it is now it is redicilous. Some character spamming in and out of the room
and you not be able to hit him due link/spamming etc factors. But your character
sees him and should have possibility to engage.)

- also should work when you enter the room with an enemy inside.

- Yes, you cant do changes like this without major changes (ref. to flee/evade also.)
- As engaging should not be instant, following and autohiting is not effective as 
- opponent moves away from you trying to engage him.
(Even engaging is done rather decently now) 
__________________________________________________________________________________________



I have nothing against optional-
AUTOFOLLOW
AUTOTRACK

Same reasoning. Why should you type in every dir while tracking (and with chance of
misdir). Its not your characters skill in tracking. Yes, your character tracks 100%,
but due link and your own poor brain absorbing text-based information, it really is around
70%. Cmon, picture this, your character sees tracks, nose in the ground, walks behind them, 
till you say stop..

 If he gets lost, it should be coded.
 Would'nt it be cool if your character sees tracks going east, while they really went west? 
Messing up 2 elf tracks? Stuff like that?

Like with every automatic feature, you could use stuff like "enter" canceling
and "go" resuming the automatic feature.


Drax: "While in inbuilt autotrack mode pressing once enter should end your auto follow,
not tracking. To where you can return with GO command or something."
________________________________________________________________________________________________

AUTOOPEN/CLOSE DOORS

Another one that has been identified as a problem.
 
Its a bit trickier here. But here is what I would do. 
I think character should remember door names. Once he knows where the secret is
and knows how to open it, it can then opened/closed automaticly next time
character attempts to go into right direction. 

I know it adds a bit into char database, describing with few bytes wich doors
every character knows, but it's well worth it. 

I have seen all aspects of it done beautifully in another mud.

Also... I rather loose all spam closing/opening by using them as continous commands..
if character does not leave room and has opened a door, he can automaticly try to keep
the door open and vice versa.

Drax: "Strength or speed modifier should affect it or the fact that you are
fighting should lower your door control ability."

AUTOBASH/KICK

An option, naah I rather see it all done automaticly during fight, Character trying
to kick/bash bash based on statistics and opportunity. No more /who has better spam/link
bashes ...

Also automatic stand should be added after unsuccessful bash, since 99% of players
have bash;stand alias.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Cur:
"Of course, in my opinion clients that enable you to have hotkeys -of any kind- should be banned.
And people should be obligated to show logs to show they're fighting fair. 
Of course, logs can be edited, but it often shows anyway if you know what to look for. 
It should all be down to aliases, reflexes, area knowledge and typing speed, 
not time spent configuring your client."


- Yikes!

- Run Quake2. Go to console mode. (Console mode is half of screen used for typing in commands)
Remove all keybindings. Instead of pressing keys to move around and shoot, Type:
+move right
+move forward
+aim 20'north 20'west
+use hyperblaster
+fire
+center view

-Having fun already???


Aliases`? -> helping some. should,nt they be removed too, right, getting more typing contest?

Reflexes`? -> U cant execute reflexes very well, you are dependant with your interface with mume.
I bet only typos will happen? Anyway reflexes + concentration works here.

Naah, I dont want this game to be typing speed contest. Sorry. Lets take a vote on that.

Naah, the interface should be as supportive as possible. I prefer direct brain waves giving my
characters instant orders :) actually
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

please consider carefully ,)
Think what would you like MUME to be? Action-Quake with bad controls 
or RPG, where MUD takes care most of unconvenient staff and leaves players with more strategy and RPG.

Yes right now it is slow-paced Quake. Kills are harder to get and therefore more rewarding. Deats are harder
on you and upset you more also. But cycle here is the same. Death, ->  re-equip, -> Frags -> Death

MUME could be so much more.
Why some cool stuff is in no_idea list I dont know. 
I like player-supported towns. I like player formations. I like raidable/takeble cities. U can
actually have any impact on the game world. And it wont hurt Tolkienish feeling too.
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valomek2000-09-15 20:51:32
i think you forgot to quote then bible and the bills of right about mume.
Skojardu2000-09-15 21:00:15
There arnt any trolls in q2 so it sucks
Azg2000-09-15 21:04:21
I fail to see the difference between ppl running around with auto - everything on and ppl running around with track bindkeys. Adding autoshit like every other diku mud out there just adds lets diversity to the game, or is that what you want? ...
Gray2000-09-15 21:09:03
Agreed. It seems for me that Cur is text typesetter and thus type really fast,
and wants to use his ability as advantage in pk (and of course get rid of
client-users who can rival with him). Well, i have some advantage too - i'm
not so bad in programming. Thus i wanna write my triggers, and let em work for
me. Each have his own advantages - why we need to expropriate em from ones,
and keep for others???
Axel2000-09-15 21:25:55
I can type fast too, but why do so when u can use bindings - pushing return
every other key sucks :>
Brunar2000-09-15 21:35:36
My need for a client would be much reduced if I could make MUME aliases that do more
than one thing at a time. Bash;Stand comes to mind, as does Leather/Metal (changing armour
b4 a fight.) A lot of people use thier clients to clean up the battle spam. If we could
get MUME to color/bold/all caps/underline/etc more stuff, it would be quite nice.
I like the idea that my character can remember where he's been a lot better than I (the
player) can. After all, my character doesn't have to deal with the information overload
that I have (at work [ya, some of us actually do this]) in addition to his learning Arda.
He just has to deal w/Arda.
I type pretty fast tho, so I guess I would not mind the typing contest after all. ;)
GORETONGUE2000-09-15 21:41:02
I think Cur's objection is that you have player A who has no client/can't
program his client, combatting player B, who has only to hit a couple hotkeys
in order to defeat player A. Which is not fair, so his solution is to
disable all client-triggers.

The other way, which the poster of this "log" is in favor of, moves the
currently client-based functionality to MUME, making the playing field
more equal. Which is a good idea, imo.

So who wants to steal MUME code so that we can bastardize it and make
our own, send me some mail =) =)
Duvel2000-09-15 21:43:37
I use TeraTerm Pro 2.0, and have aliases for all I want to do. If i want to spamclose I have to make new alias. Still people think I use clients sometimes.

Get a typing diplom then you do not need a client and then mume is more fun since using a client is like playign a flightsimulator. Shake the stick and hit fire when the target is near. Kinda boring ;)
Khorak2000-09-15 21:54:11
Good comment, Goretongue!

If difference between players and players_with_clients has become too big, MUME code should start supporting the same features, what are currently handled by clients. (more or less)
Axel2000-09-15 21:54:45
I say playing with client is like driving a car while without you have to use a
bike :>
Khorak to Duvel2000-09-15 22:02:36
Hehe, lets divide MUME into:

Stone-MUME
everything is manual. U must use complete sentences, correct grammar, etc.

and Sci-fi MUME
And then I turned the wheel on my flight-stick and pushed the gas pedal.
Ofcourse with that boost I spammed past the elf. And fire button didnt work again :)
Dresden2000-09-15 22:18:42
Wow, I love those ideas Khorak. One thing that I could add is this example: you are resting, suddenly an enemy comes into view with a big stick. You wanna run away, so you start spamming flee, then you get: you are too relaxed! This is the height of stupidity, I am about to get a heartattack, how am I too relaxed, why do i need to stand;flee when mume could take care of standing part automatically, it should be clear that nobody would want to start fleeing while resting. I think mume should let people do things they actually WANT to do easier (so when you start fleeing when resting it is clear you also want to stand up, you just forgot to type it)

I have something like 600 aliases, even for very simple stuff, cause whenever I type stuff I need to look at the keyboard (except when typing a paper like this) so the more things i can have as keybindings the more i have time to actually look what's going on on screen.

I say DOWN with old telnet mume, and lets make this game more user-friendly :)
Dresden2000-09-15 22:23:13
And to extrapolate on the secret doors problem, indeed, if I once found a secret door, it shouldn't be a secret to me any longer, no? Why would I need to write down all the secret entrances on a piece of paper when mume could easily do it for me?
GORETONGUE2000-09-15 23:36:06
re: secret doors being remembered by your char
Then you come to that door with your other character, thinking you know it..eep
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Someone said using clients for hunting is like a flight simulator: shake the
stick and hit fire when target in range. I love that analogy. That is how
I see hunting in packs along the road, with or without client both...you have
ppl like Norsu who hunt that way very successfully, and quit the game,
because he bored himself to (un)death doing that.
Krown2000-09-16 00:17:09
Then again with my intelligence i might not remember
simple things such as door names.
Some rooms in the game are suposed to be quite large (i believe)
and even if you see the enemy instahit might be a bit to much.
Although if you are resting in a cabin and a few elves come wandering
inn, you would want something to eat fast right ? ;).
Nazgum2000-09-16 00:21:02
very good ideas, i would love to see all of them implemented,
tho i see it doubtful.

I think mume combat should be much more 'textual' then it is
at the moment, and i think that warriors and stuff should
be auto using their skills in combat. Some very cool text
could be added if mume combat was automated, where the only
thing you control is the general attitude of your character
(ie agg, norm, wim, flee, chase)

very cool ideas
Juston2000-09-16 00:46:12
My ideas:
1. demote all ravens for using actions that assist in pkill
2. demote all people who raid warrens/noc/bree/gh/fornost/whatever because they are easy targets for other people be they pukes or darkies so they help the people rather than fighting them.
3. make zones 2 squares by 2 squares
4. let full shining sets load on butterflies
5. have hidden island load wightblades, ruby, full fine chain set, 900 gold
6. make it possible to set bombs
7. exchange the ol' rustic bow and arrows with AK-47s, rocket launchers, heavy machine guns.
8. give people 900,000 prac sessions each time they level
9. make it possible to burn down forests
10. remove clients cause they are hard for the average person (unlike me, who's smarter than the average bear.)
11. remove aliases too cause you can only program one thing at a time.
12. Put balrog in halls (all)
13. for orcs/trolls/bns make it possible to wear a vest made out of hair
14. rename gh candy-land
15. make sewers to connect valinor-gh-bree-rdell-tbad-fornost
16. replace wargs/horses/mules/ponies/wolves/dain with cars.
*an orc* narrates 'two half-elves in ferraris lb'
17. rename trolls 'daz big guys'
18. rename bns 'small trolls who can't be warriors'
19. rename orcs 'petite trolls'
*whew*
Isoldir2000-09-16 00:50:54
*cackle**rolf**cackle*
Juston2000-09-16 01:01:58
My ideas:
1. demote all ravens for using actions that assist in pkill
2. demote all people who raid warrens/noc/bree/gh/fornost/whatever because they are easy targets for other people be they pukes or darkies so they help the people rather than fighting them.
3. make zones 2 squares by 2 squares
4. let full shining sets load on butterflies
5. have hidden island load wightblades, ruby, full fine chain set, 900 gold
6. make it possible to set bombs
7. exchange the ol' rustic bow and arrows with AK-47s, rocket launchers, heavy machine guns.
8. give people 900,000 prac sessions each time they level
9. make it possible to burn down forests
10. remove clients cause they are hard for the average person (unlike me, who's smarter than the average bear.)
11. remove aliases too cause you can only program one thing at a time.
12. Put balrog in halls (all)
13. for orcs/trolls/bns make it possible to wear a vest made out of hair
14. rename gh candy-land
15. make sewers to connect valinor-gh-bree-rdell-tbad-fornost
16. replace wargs/horses/mules/ponies/wolves/dain with cars.
*an orc* narrates 'two half-elves in ferraris lb'
17. rename trolls 'daz big guys'
18. rename bns 'small trolls who can't be warriors'
19. rename orcs 'petite trolls'
*whew*
juston2000-09-16 01:02:13
yeouch refresh button!
Elistan2000-09-16 01:16:08
I feel like this: anyone that uses actions should be demoted to level 1 and have all your character password scrambles. Whats the use of playing mume with actions? You dont do shit yourself, so its just a damn bunch of computers playing. So anyone stupid enough to think that they should be allowed is really lame and needs to stop playing MUME. The idea of actions allowed on any circumstances is unethical, and unfair. You feel it would be fair to have actions allowed. Nothing new will change. Superlinkedswedes will just win all the damn time and everyone with slow links would die. So whoever is for actions needs to grow the hell up and know how to play like a real man.
Axel2000-09-16 01:22:44
uhm, real man dont play :>
Wojtek2000-09-16 02:55:50
Btw this is a resource for mume logs, if u wish I can set up a discussion forum for mume as a nntp news server and u can discuss all u want there?
Unknown2000-09-16 03:06:24
Or why don't use the provided Neoboard...
Dresden2000-09-16 03:27:53
I never read any damn boards, this is the best place to write stuff :)
Ethar2000-09-16 04:00:42
booooooooo elistan wrong as usual
Ellestar2000-09-16 04:28:46
Nice ideas, now become an immortal and get to work. Nothing is ever done unless someone does it. I've played telnet and now with client, I got tired of typing wake, stand, ride. I'm a fumble fingered fucked who panics under pressure and got killed alot. Buying a client and learning to use (and a cable modem) has made the game much more enjoyable for me. The game or diku should be not be allowed to bash, kick, shoot, track, etc. This a game for humans to be played by humans.
Asmodeus2000-09-16 06:50:21
just load up mumeIII on another port for us who enjoyed it and the rest
of you can argue about mumeVII :>
Daevia2000-09-16 08:42:05
The reasoning behind client-side scripting is this: a text-based mud
is severely user-input limited. Theres lots of stuff to type and only
so many hands (two for most, i hope). I'm not a very fast typer, so
actions that set aliases and hotkeys make it a lot easier for me to
do stuff. Plus the fact that I'm a slow ass link (compared to lab swedes)
added to the delay caused by slow user-input.
Personally i think actions like autohit/autotrack are not in good taste
(like Glimo-type scripts of old) but actions used to set aliases and make
hotkeys are not at all bad.

Just my two cents.
Dorak2000-09-16 10:23:43
Real men use telnet. End of story! :)
vargas2000-09-16 12:14:27
demote the damn rangers, they'r overpowered!!!
Ginlon2000-09-16 15:52:23
Im with ya Asmodeus...

Dont ya fucking dare trap me at Aaaaahhhh with those fricking quakes!
Pampalini2000-09-16 20:56:11
Funny would be linkless elf follownig my tracks into my trap. But should i kill him for that?
PS: for playing warriors you really dont need client. Mume aliases are enought
(u can program targeting or aliases for spam opening doors etc.
try e.g. alias like alias t alias b bash and by typing t elf u can just spam key
b and u bash elf (erm did i invented anything new?:)).
Jocke2000-09-17 20:44:23
Some of you guys take MUME way to seriously. Relax, play and have fun.
While reading your ideas p(Olox) i can't help thinking you have a serious problem.
You really make me laugh.
Jalin2000-09-18 03:16:24
You are all assuming mume managements pays attention to comments
and suggestions by the users - which sadly isn't the case. As they have
said many many times... it's they're mud and they are gonna do what
they wanna do...not what we, the people who waste our time here supporting
this mud, want to see implemented.
Cur/Roadkill2000-09-18 22:20:10
To Gray: :-) I'm not a typesetter. I'm not even good at typing which you'll know if you ever read my logs. I type about as fast and effective as a can of syrup. Goretongue got my intentions right; I don't want people with B.Sc.'s in comp. sci. to gain advantage therefrom - all the code that should affect players on MUME should already be in the mud itself. Seeing as typing is an essential part of playing the game, you kind of have to assume everybody can (more or less) type, but apart from that and link, intervening variables should only be your speed and ability as a player. Oh, and luck, too :-)
Diam2000-09-19 11:27:19
I can type 85words per min, have a licence for that, where 75 are errorless,
then i can also program my client so good, that all i have to do is spam restart the client, because the program is so powerful, it keeps crashing it.
Then i also rock in everything else, including competing in room descriptions with many many snagas in noc and i also rock in commenting before geting bashed!

So altogether i rock so hard, that i keep having hardtime geting it down.
Unknown2000-09-20 15:39:02
Beats having a hard time getting it up...
GORETONGUE2000-09-20 22:23:32
Unknown you should have takced a name on that last one...
Jalin youre wrong about that. For instance I bitch about troll stuff
enough and it gets changed (mend shields, etc----->mend guy at dt)
(add spear for troll----->spear for troll added)
etc just bitch a LOT
Natash2000-09-21 15:49:38
On working with clients: figure out how to set: VARIABLES, how to assign HOTKEYS.
the rest is easy, just thinking of stuff u need... ( the ; char to separate commands is
nice to know aswell btw). Triggers are only usefull for colours ( and i like my autoloot :P)
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