I lost link 2xs. Jandor saw it the first and second. This horseshit about me dropping link is rediculous. Mayavi I don't know who the fuck you are, but you have proven your worth to this mud in this log.
My apologies to Zippo and Alweon, who obviously made an effort not to kill me here.

Dude!! That sucks...
Comf man.. but very nice form. I have to say if I had known I would of went wimpy or something and fled a lot.

Nice call.. we all..err most of us.. try to be that way.

__the Rock Lobster

Sorry Forek, I just seen Jandor fighting and casted, didnt realize you were linkless there:(

More examples of the wonderful players that play MUME. Mayavi, you are a fucking complete idiot.

Second log in a row that puts jandor in a bad light huh, someone must not like him.

I think its more that Jandor do shit that makes
people don't like him :)


Nahar, you are a good guy... and i think everyone
respect what you did.. and you'll probably get demoted
because the management don't want players that like
fair play, or that have guts or honour....

*hugs Forek...

Nahar will have to be demoted to level 1. Rules cross-race is explicit. Management can't allow this kind of action even if it was well intentioned as I'm sure this case was.

Why you say?

Because some less than well intentioned teenager just read this log. This less than well intentioned teen just figured out a way to pass spare eq cross race to his pals and make it look like a good deed. "But Mr. A+ we killed him linkless and I was only giving back his eq!"

Too lame for words. It's assholes like Mayavi that get things like wps removed for the rest of us. Goddam no talent little kids.

Well, with all due respect to the management, I think it's about as hard to
distinguish between such cases as Niccolo seems to be worried about, and
shining examples like Nahar, as putting on a hat. If the current management
doesn't feel up to it, they should go play mortal and let those of us with
any sense of moral decency take over.

Nahar and co. just earned my profound respect. MUME would be a better place if
it rewarded compassionate and brave play like that, instead of the current
wimpiness and cheating (I call hiding behind roleplaying cheating).

Rules are rules. If Nahar was such a shining example of greatness he wouldn't have tried to loot.

*>q
[get all corpse]

Zippo leaves ¤¤ U P ¤¤.
Alweon leaves ¤¤ U P ¤¤.
You follow Zippo.
Dark Dreary Forest
Jandor the Dwarf is standing here.
Transe the Half-Elf is standing here.

*>You don't see a corpse to get things from.

Sorry to see a linkless death. Why use narrate so much though, especially early
on? Nearly every word spoken was on narrate. Please us narrate a little less,
otherwise sympathy goes to the darkie and SOME of the whities who made an
effort.

i tottally agree with cur!
this was great thing to do i say nahar
very nice

Well didn't know Mayavi was such a jerk, guess I know now

I really doubt if any1 else then Nahar would do such a move. We all should learn.
He is true character and i've never seen anything more brave on mume b4. Shame on
Mayavi and others who caused this all and in fact killed Nahar.

Niccolo is fucking moron, cant understand fair play just sitting on fucking rules.
You all dont have only little sence for fair play, brave and all those things?
I say, if you demote Nahar i will have to change my meaning about mume. If you
critics guys are the same in rl as in game, i doubt you have any friends and i
pity every1 who has to get on with you :(
PS: Deor you kinda missed why he wanted to loot i think.........

Rules were made to be broken

That's a stupid saying

But demoting nahar for that is stupider

Yes, I realize stupider isn't a word in YOUR language

Again management succeeds to scare of some good players i think
It's getting a habit, soon we'll just have lameasbitches as Jandor, Daevia and Mayavi left
sucks ass

If management allows shit like jandor and such killing elmo, and then demote nahar for doing an entirely selfless act like suiciding cuz of bullshit done by idiots, I'm done with this game. Nahar was not asked to do what he did. He made an entire choice to do that on a personal level. If ainur can't see this is what mume needs (people with integrity) then demote all my chars too. This game has gone to the shitter in the last 6 months. If you gonna screw someone like Nahar, just shut this game down.

If ainur feels fit to punish nahar in this matter, I want forek removed to level 1, not Nahar. I don't need the guilt of someone like Nahar getting fucked over doing the right thing on this game. So you Ainur make sure I take the hit, not Nahar.

Agreed Forek.

A very noble act indeed, I don't deny that.

However, we have some rules in MUME that the players are supposed to follow. Imagine if we let everyone "return" eq cross-race when they think their foe died an unfair death. Players would be returning eq back and forth, mainly to their friends or players they know (lab-players and experienced players getting yet another advantage). It would get out of hand, or don't you think so?

I've said this before, there have been occasions when players have been allowed to _return_ eq cross-race by a V+. However, this was not the case this time. Sorry.

Regardless of what happened to who there was still a rule blatantly broken. I never said I didn't think what Nahar did was unselfish. Manwe has said several times there is absolutely no giving back of equipment cross race, whether it was a linkless kill or not, its just not allowed. If it was up to the PLAYERS it would be a different story and we would think nothing of it. But there are these people called Implementors and Valar who run this game, not us. If we want to play their game we gotta do it by their rules.

I sympathize for Forek, but we've ALL been killed linkless at some point. It's part of MUME, for better or worse. Get over it. Allowing something like this to go without punishment opens the gates for all kinds of gayers who will cite this as a reference and think they can get away with throwing eq back and forth cross race in the name of 'fairness'. That's what will happen and you all know it.

I don't make the rules around here I just help people see why they are important. Think about in real life, if some dude slaps your sister around and you go beat his face in, you are still going to go to jail even though the cops clap you on the back. They don't want to lock you up but they have no choice.

It makes sense to me anyway. You guys sure can be melodramatic.

was very noble of Forek and a real player and believer of Fair Play.
Sucks when ainurs demote u for that...*comfort*
hmm jandor pissed on 2x time? *jandor = Lameass ?*

good post by deor

I dont understand you its a just games and you can see on the log that it the player did not wanted any profit by this moves, so why fu&%$& demote him? Its against the rules, but deor said that "there have been occasions when players have been allowed to _return_ eq cross-race by a V+." why not here? .. confusing I read here it was forbidden? and btw if some dude slaps your sister, you can tell the cops to put him in jail, there is still justice (more or less) in our world. Imho nahars move was very honourable, management should judge in his favour, which does not mean that other can break the rules and go away. I admit its a hard decision. I find it worse that other people try to find wholes in some rules and abuse them on purpose but this is another story ..

*Hug Nahar* Ppl like you make this game worth playing! It's insane to demote him for this. Ainurs are dealing with the wrong kind of ppl, u dont demote sameside pkillers and so on but someone who does something honorable? It's ridiculous.

Deor, I just saw this log and now I am planning a large scale cross race eq trade
via the exact same method as shown in the log above. I was planning on just giving
the eq while multiplaying, but this log elucidates a perfect scheme that I
hadnt thought of before.
*Sarcasm off*
Deor, your posts here alone have shed new light onto your clueless
disposition. I had some serious respect for all your chars, but had no clue
you were such a moron rule bender (ie Tulkas- where the asshole involved would
accually attemp to bend the rules/your actions in hopes of demoting). Rules are
important, buy to assume this will somehow trigger cross race eq transfer is idiotic. The above log
could just have easily been read as one of Nahar's berserker missions he seems
to love, and often fail btw (store fireballs or quakes and spam in).


Deor, I've just lost a lot of respect for someone that I considered a good person.

*spit*

Deor is horny to be a V+ so hes sucking as much managemant dick as he can fit
into his mouth.

ROFLMAO!!!! This is what YOU call pk right Mayavi!!
ROFLMAO!!!! Yea also seems fucking fitting jandor would
continue to fucking slaughter someone linkless.

I've returned equip every time i've slain linkless and
i've yet to be demoted. I do it blantantly as well,
yet nahar simply ran in warrens and died. And now
he (a very cool dude) is being punished for it,
how lame.

You might all like to know why mayavi kept saying 'broke link' etc instead of 'lost link'. A while back, I killed him in eregion. After some 10 ticks, I happened across his tracks again in the same area. The tracks deadended, so I just didn't bother. But after another couple ticks, I found tracks again. Mayavi was spamming around looking for his corpse. Then when he was low mps, he would hide his lantern and use quit command. He did this 4 times (that I saw/tracked). Finally, a mob hit him as he tried to quit again moveless, and I killed him again.

Anyway, point is, Mayavi is one that personally abuses game mechanics to gain an advantage, and as such, he sees everyone else that has any trouble as doing the same.

Nahar did in any way looking at this break a some rules, though, he did break them because he was involved in a linkless killing.
Management can in any case punish him for breaking the rules of mume, and thus ofcouse make a statement that says;
"We DONT want you to return eq to those who you by accident killed linkless.
Keep the eq for yourself, or give your friends"

Yes, this is the correct way of saying rules are rules! And by this saying that linkless killing ofcouse is not illegal at all.

Rules are rules, and yes, he should be punished, like take 3k xp from him or simular to that, he is still punished, but it wont be a signal to mume mortals that anyone can be killed linkless...

If Nahar is to be demoted by levels due to this, demote Mayavi dual the levels for killing linkless, then all would be fairly punished.

I'm the little puss troll that bashed him, and it went by soooo quickly both Kreil and I thought we had gotten a nice, albeit lucky kill in. We also didn't get him on trophy 'cause those goddamn mobs, but it didn't look like suicide at all to us. Course I got 4 int. but...
OH YEAH, WHEN I FIND OUT WHO THE FUCK FACE PUKE THAT SLEPT ME OUTSIDE OF DT ONE TICK BEFORE DAY IS, MAKING ME SUNDIE, I WILL ASSFUCK YOU INTO NEXT TUESDAY
that is all......

Oh yeah, Nahar, you rock dude.....

Well, I believe their was a lot of "Lame" people their, and what Nahar did was very noble indeed. The first thing I noticed when reading this log was that some *Dreadful Orc* was linkless. The next thing I noticed was the pukes spam narrating he is linkless, linkdead. The third thing I noticed was that Celorfilas still casted upon him, and Jandor resumed to hunt him down, even though he was linkless. And for Mayavi to kill and loot, was totally lame. Its ever worse than what Nazgum does, so I dont wanna hear Mayavi complain again. The only one I really do respect outa this whole thing would have been Zippo, for giving eq to Nahar, Nahar for taking a bold sacrifice, and Alweon because he noticed that he was linkless and did not continue to hit.

---BoW---

Nahar

a little birdie told me it was Night, Nerf.

BTW, Forek died a little later to Brak around DT. He spared me when my link was shot. *comf Forek*

THanKs little birdie, i heard that too....growl

Well, i stopped reading the comments where i got pissed off... about where i realized that the gods were gonna demote nahar. In jandor and transe's defence, they were probably standing in the escape route room when Forek fled north to them. I am not sure, but i don't think you see '*Forek the Orc* has arrived from the south (Linkless).' If you do, at least they didn't whack him when he went up.
Basically this game can suck my fucking cock if Nahar gets demoted. I am fucking tired of gods who rarely play this game and experience feelings in this game that active players do that will demote people for such reasons.
You wanna put in rules about no cross-race eq transfer when a moron kills someone linkless. Implement a new rule that the same player is fair game to those more noble and can be slaughtered (ie Mayavi).
Otherwise if this is how its going to be, demote all my fucking characters and i will waste the time i spend on mume somewhere else.

Nahar rocks and all u fucking rulewhores shut up. Nahar, instead many of u, seems
to understand the factors that make this game enjoyable. If he gets demoted then
mume has become a rulemud. No fun, just rules... everywhere. I accept demoting couple
levels, not to level 1. You can't be that harsh to a player who just wanted to do a
right thing. Like some1 before said, things like sameside pkilling are allowed while
something like that isn't. Sucks.

dident read the log that carefully, but you sacrifieced your life for him to get eq back?

if so your the player we need more off. that was fucking brave, you really deserve a statue like trix =) on W-ford. all hats of for you. sucks you prolly will get demoted

Point being, this aint rl. The big tip off for me was when i learnt how to conjure up a fireball from thin air! So why try make as many aspects of it rl as you can, yet let other aspects remain completely fake.
Mume is a place where one can escape reality and in some cases, it lets you be a vigilante (ie. killing those you see deserve to die. eg. orcs, trolls, black numenoreans.). I don't understand how in nearly all cases where someone is 'noble' the gods find some way to fuck em. sample Rule#1 Can not give eq back when someone dies linkless. "Remedy for Rule#1" Make it, you can't give eq back when someone dies in a lame way other than linkless. You will still get purposeful linkless killers that will keep the eq, but when someone is unintentionally killed that person has the option to give eq back..
Sample Rule#2 You must kill all of the opposite race, if you can. No sparing, communication, healing. --> This rule suggests that even if you see *an Orc* (Linkless) it is your duty to slay his ass. "Remedy for Sample Rule#2" No sparing of opposite race, UNLESS he is (Linkless). If you choose to kill him (Linkless) consider yourself fair game to those more nobler than thou.

People say, LInkless is like slipping on a banana peel in combat. Well no, that is fumbling. Linkless in MUME is like having your mind and all controll RIPPED out of your body by an otherworldly force for an undetermined period of time. It would be more like seeing *an Orc* is lying here in a coma appearing to be completely dead. I wouldn't see many people poking it with a stick, and then chopping its head off, would you?

oh yea, i also wanted to point out, that on MORE then one occassion
i have seen or heard about Mayavi PRETENDING To be linkdead
when he is in trouble knowing that some players will cease to kill
him. Then once he has moves he insta spams away. he's done this
to me personally more then once now.

Morons like this is what keeps game from having rules about linklessness,
cudos to you asshole.

*comf forek and nahar*

Sorry for yet another comment, i must be making Shadrach itch like he was bitten by fire ants atm.
You want RL, here is rl. There are those that make and enforce the rules. (police, judges, senate, blahblah government.)
There are those that oppose these laws. Protesters, rebel factions and so on.
Laws become outdated, and are in somecases UPdated to today's society standards.
Look at the comments posted here Mr. Oppressive Men above us. I think its a general concencus that these rules need to be tweaked a little. Do the right thing and be a democracy for once please. In the 3.5 years i have been here, i have seen ONE democratic event. That is when Manwe opened a testmud to see if we liked the move regen changes after they were implemented and werent working so well. I applaud him there.
In RL we have maybe 2-3 communistic dictatorships left on this planet. Is mume to be ruled this way?

Too namo...

You say you demote him for this ?

then demote the trolls that killed orcs in warrens its against the rules
*RULES TROLLS*

if you dont demote them you should not demote Nahar.

man, alot of bad blood lately.....
nahar rocks.

hey jandor, reading this log, i recall a certain conversation we had, about a certain thing a character of yours, and a certain thing you said to me, about how you always do the certain thing that you did to me, because people always did that certain thing to me? really man thats being twofaced after i read things you say in this log

oh ya and the reason jandor did this certain thing to me with a certain character was because he said i did the thing that forek was said to have done to avoid you know what

Ouch :-

if it was coded that when you are engaged linkless, you will have a shadow
if you die it would avoid most of these crossrace eq transfers for linkless
death, you could simpy protect his shadow until he is able to come loot it

In our society (and I don't care where you live, this holds true) there are
certain people who are tasked with judging cases of crime and the breaking of
rules. Not every judge sits at his little podium and says RULES ARE RULES, now
rot in prison! They ADJUST the punishments to fit the circumstances. I happen
to know for a fact that at least some of the ainu are smart enough to realize
this.

Take saurons list for exmaple. I whacked elfy at bree and was threatened with
elbereths list next time I do it. If I had whacked nahar (which of course I
wouldn't) I would be on saurons list right now. The ainur MOLDED the punishment
(in my case with elfy, warning) to fit the circumstances. THINK before you
demote for christ sake. If manwe says absolutely no transferring of eq, give
nahar a warning about next time perhaps talking to a valar to get the eq back?

Please send the right message here. Kaldae hit the nail on the head I think.
It's ok to kill characters linkless and keep the equipment with absolutely no
punishment. That is the message being sent currently.

Let the stroke of doom fall lightly this time, and let all here realize that
killing linkless is wrong while at the SAME time sending the message that it is
good to return equipment under certain circumstances in the PROPER manner.

I have spoken.

If so people would have triggers to drop link on incap to be 100% sure to get shadow - no thanks.

All this talk of rules and law is making me so happy as I sit in my office reading these logs. I want to point out that Deor is right. As distasteful as it may sound (and Deor is the brave one getting flamed for saying it) the law (or laws) are made for the reasonable man. That is, they are there to protect and respond to for certain, generic situations. It is very difficult to tailor any law to adapt to varying specific circumstances (that is why we have the element test in both code and common law jurisdictions). There are 2 ways to handle the application of a law: 1) Bright-line test: i.e. the '33 and '34 U.S. Securities acts. You do x, it will equal y regardless of how or why you got to x. Once at y there is strict liability, meaning No MITITGATION AT ALL. Mume law on Cross-race equip transfer fits this model. 2) Allow the proof of the crime to be objective but the decision to be subjective. That is, in a murder trial, motive is irrelevant as to burden of proof and can only be used to support the contention that the elements of murder have been met. The subjective element is when the evidence is presented to a jury and they make a decision based on both the evidence and there own feelings etc. We can't have this type of decision making in Mume. It is to unwieldy and ripe for abuse (see O.J. Simpson trial). And for any law to be taken seriously it must be uniformly enforced, without regard to mitigating circumstances.

That said, Jandor what sort of fucking ejit are you? Nazgum, why do u even waste your breath on someone like Mayvai?

Why is Jandor getting flamed for this? We didnt realize when we entered, and
stopped soon as we noticed narrates, and Jandor was yelling sorry to him.

Oh lordie lord, I retire for night and fuckwits spam board with hate posts.

Look, morons. I was at escape route and Forek comes in, I hit him, he flees south.
He wouldve been hit by mobs if he fled N. I narrate forek at escape route. Others come
and hit him. Suddenly he is linkless. I stop.
Then I hear him yelling curses. I track him and stab. He wasn't linkless when
I stabbed.

NOW, fuckwits, I don't care what you dream up about 'honor'. I have left people
live linkless even with the best eq ever in game. e.g. Durcano at caved in a few days
earlier. Let Forek check his history and it will NOT say he died linkless.

As for Trapgum, blow a goat, you SOB. 'Let me live many times eh?' Bah such nerdish
lies. OM gets lucky once and he thinks he rules. ANY TIME OM you feel like pking,
just let me know. ANY TIME, punk. I kicked your and Girando's ass SOLO at demon cave
recently, didn't I? Both of you fled Bad/Awful and this was without poison!

Frigging shit players trying to claim 'honor' by looting people they didn't kill and
then doing illegal cross-race trade. Is Nahar rl friend with Forek? I think he
might well be.

Now fuckwits, go and bend over for Nahar, who has died lots of times to my darkies anyway.
He sucks at pk and thinks he is a god. The old Nahar was Cavalier, I think. The
new one is a freaking moron.

Using strong words doesn't make a sentence more true. Ok here we go:

1. If it wasn't possible to kill someone who lost link, everyone would drop link when near death.

2. If someone decides (or just happen to) kill a linkless person. Then that person is dead and will remain so with the loss of xp/tp. There will never be a reimb.

3. If the slayer decides to loot the body of the linklessly killed person, the eq shall not be returned cross-race, unless a V+ says he can do so.

4. If the looter (or someone else for that matter) decides to return the eq anyway, he will be punished.

5. If the killers/enemies don't want the eq, for they think that the linkless person died an unfair death. They can, but should not, refrain from looting the corpse. I wouldn't wanna see a trend with players leaving unlooted corpses with super equipment in.

Being a V+ means an endless spam from players who think they know what's right and wrong in MUME. "I need to get a reroll for blablablble" and "I'm gonna kill him three times now, because he killed me and took my eq, it's a fair deal!". The management sets the stage, and you play on that stage, if you don't like it, then leave. Of course we listen to opinions from mortals, but when people are using caps or tend to curse all the time it gets rather tiresome. I know that at least I stop listening then.

REGARDING THE PUNISHMENT OF NAHAR: it was pretty much decided long ago. Stop worrying about it. I know that at least I couldn't care less for all the emotional comments on this forum, I formed my own opinion from reading the log. (I did listen to most of the comments though)

You smite *a Troll*'s right leg extremely hard.

Nahar rocks!
I'm getting myself a warsword!


Oh, and don't start yelling next time you reconnect Forek.
I know you probably had lots of hps when you got dropped, but its better too try and run like hell instead of starting too yell ; ).

>The old Nahar was Cavalier, I think. The
>new one is a freaking moron.

Umm sorry to inform you, but I am the one who created nahar, and have been playing him for the last 6-7 years.

The one who used to charm 8 hungries and raid shire?
Nah, can't be.

Good thing you seem to be playing a solo character because noone would group with your whiney, overconfident, linkdropping, linkdrop-faking, ass. You are moron in the truest sense of the word if you think you rock more than any of the people you listed =) Get yourself a larger vocabulary than 'fuckwit' before you flame people, as you sound like a child =)

Oh, and Durcano could kickyour ass even linkless =)

The problem with just letting this or any other broken rule go is that it gives a false message to other people that the V+ aren't going to back up the rules they make. It's like they teach you about riots:

A large crowd (In this case mume population) is assembled somewhere for a common reason. Most people are docile, just trying to show their beliefs. But out of every 100 people there is 1 person more radical towards his cause and does something that provokes a lot of emotion in the crowd like throwing a rock. (Or dying on purpose as Elf to give an Orc back his eq)

Now if this rock thrower isn't punished immediately for his actions, all it does is show people that they might get away with it. There is a period of observation where people evaluate what happens to the rock thrower. If nothing happens to him, the next time there will be 3 rock throwers rather than the one.

Then the crowd stops to watch what happens again. If nothing happens then all of a sudden you have everyone throwing rocks, tipping cars, whatever.

So it doesn't matter who, what, when or why with this specific case, it only matters that something is done for a rule being broken so that others don't continue to break the rule and cite this as a reference to why they should be able to get away with it. Because you know down the line some retarded lab or a couple of players are going to recreate this as a way to transfer eq in the name of fairness.

As for all you Unknowns who think I kiss V+ ass, it just shows you really don't know me. I've stuck my foot so far into my mouth trying to stand up for changes that I think hurt the game my toes are popping out of my ear. I'm prolly the last in line for any consideration to V+ because of it.

What's a fuckwit?

#trig {Linkless} {#col red,bold}

He wasn't linkless when you entered, bullfuckingshit.

'Now fuckwits, go and bend over for Nahar, who has died lots of times to my darkies anyway. He sucks at pk and thinks he is a god. '

Muahaha, i needed that laugh, it's been a long day. Mayavi, who the fuck are you and do you even know who else Nahar is? Are you TRYING to act stupid or are you just blessed with it?

Nahar, you rock, you always have. *hugs* Ppl like you make the game worth sticking around for, there's not much left to it.

And btw..nuking him to within 5 hps of his life and then saying "OH! He connected THEN we killed him so he wasn't linkless!!!!!!"

Duh. What are you, people with the mentality of 10 years old, or ARE you 10 year olds? Lamers.

HAAAAHAAAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAA TO U TIA

* To namo * and other Imps: I agree with Khwaj's comment, that is,
how can you justify demoting Nahar for his selfless act, yet the troll
Grand, who undeniably repeatedly and unremorsefully broke the rules
regarding sameside PK was yet again "warned"?

And to Lochdale , Deor, and other Lawfull Good alignment-types: your
logic is correct, however you are taking this WAY too seriously. This is
not a "court of Law", not a MURDER trial, not some race riot in Los Angeles
where order must be maintained at the cost of human lives. Get real.
Additionally, your motive for enforcing the "law" as it is written, without
any consideration of mercy (level 1??), is pathetic. To prevent some
lab-group down the line from re-creating this scheme, illegally transfering
eq and citing Nahar as precedence? Is that worth demoting Nahar? It looks
to me like someone has a grudge against Nahar...either that or it is just
plain stupidity.

Oh, and Deor, where was that "rules are rules" mantra a couple months
ago when your mortal was logged abusing the ACTS command to mislead a *man*
into thinking you were (linkless)?

I've decided to answer a couple questions being spammed on me on mume:
1) why u picking on jandor?
Answer: while this log doesnt' show it, jandor hit me prior to flag link and saw me reconnect. he then said shit no flag sorry. I yell american link fucked and freeze again. He knew I was fucked up and hit me anyway. And Transe was in the room as well, so this bullshit about not knowing anything is just that: bullshit.
2) Do Nahar and I know each other rl?
answer: no. We have been friends on mume 6 years running. Did I know he was even on the game when this whole thing transpired? nope. he was nonamer to me. There are few people here in 6 years that I can say have stood by me as I learned this game. 2 actually come to mind, P(nahar) is one of them. People that think this was a cheat move have no clue.
3) If people think I give a rats ass about the equip, they are entirely off-base, and I don't think people are worked up about equip on this issue. I think this issue just touches on one of the major flaws of this game at the moment: That idiots can mess with people and not be punished, while others can do something noble and face punishment. If I've learned anything from this incident, it's that I have a true friend in p(nahar), more than I realized. For that I am honored. Btw, I would just love to know what other chars Mayavi play, cuz he seems SO put together.

I hate the fact that some rules are enforced vigilantly but then if something asinine that isn't on rules (summon-stealing, same-side pkill on darkie side, etc.) they back off no matter how idiotically cut-and-dry it is that this person is an asshole. Bleh

Definately agree with Tia. *Hugs girlie* :O)
I've said it before and I'm saying it again: Demote those moronic sameside pkillers/stealers, before u deal with this kind of honorable 'crimes'.

LOL Alweon, anytime you feel like it, tell me and i can kick the crap outta you.
Jeez, some kids these days. Who is your darkie? I will make it a point to kill
him as many times as I see him :)

Tia, blow a goat. You think a linkless char can just run to escape route from whereever
he was fighting outside? All this makes me wonder if next time I should worry
about obviously linkless people anyway. Well, you all are on notice.
Don't expect mercy from me - link or no link from now on ever. :)

And yes, keep whining. I love to see it.

What chars do you play forek? From seeing how clueless Alweon is, I would've guessed
alweon but he is just another pisspot of nazgum, nothing more.
So who else do you play? :P

I lost link in forest. Jandor I would imagine hit me into warrens. You still wonder if I lost link? Fucking idiot.

Loves all

Alweon is not Nazgum.
I'm gonna do what I can not to piss anyone off here...

Forek - Has a shitty American link, I've tried to give him many a tell to get "He is linkless..."

Jandor - At times I hate him and want him dead. Other times I'm glad he's grouped with me. He's done some stupid shit, and I'm sure we all have. It is quite possible he was horny for a kill and spammed not seeing linkless? Shitty link doesn't mean spare life, sorry. =(

Mayavi - Got kill and wps. Dunno whoelse Mayavi plays, and I don't really care.

Deor - HAS BIG SACKS. The fact that he's gone to all this trouble to explain to use what happened and what's been/being done. I still think this guy is one of the best ainur in the game, mainly cause he's got a high level job, and is doing his job whether or not he likes it.

Namo - Dunno if he still plays or not, since I'm a newbie, but same with him. He's still sticking up for the game which he probably loves whether he plays or not. I doubt he agrees with the rules that are in place, because of these "occasions" but still inforces 'em. I tip my hat to thee.

Nahar - No clue whom else he plays, but I'd love to know. He's also very gutsy for the action he took. And if he never posted this log and just spoke with p(Forek), this never woulda happened...

Lochdale - Lawyer that follows the laws too much.

Antar - Newbie who knows nothing.

Nahar,
I offer to help power lvl you any time im on just give a tell. You will be back up no time (*Wishes that shit like this didnt happen*)
Assholes are assholes is all i got to say

Nahar,
I offer to help power lvl you any time im on just give a tell. You will be back up no time (*Wishes that shit like this didnt happen*)
Assholes are assholes is all i got to say

Nahar,
I offer to help power lvl you any time im on just give a tell. You will be back up no time (*Wishes that shit like this didnt happen*)
Assholes are assholes is all i got to say

Yes I still play the game, both darkies and whities and usually more than a couple of hours a week.

Anyway,

Grand is a different issue. When it comes to same-side pk'ing on the darkie side Gods have decided not to do much. Darkies are chaotic creatures, we very seldom meddle in darkie-darkie pk.
The one exception for this is Trolls, they should not "make a career" out of killing darkies in warrens, due to the simple fact that it's a haven for other darkies and doing so is simply too... easy, unfair.

I read a post on the orc board about Grand killing Orcs in warrens, so I begun checking these orcs histories -> only one of the orcs named in that post had died in warrens lately. To a young troll (this was Dispater as you all have read on this logpage). Grand didn't have a single Orc on his trophy.

We do not demote players on hearsay, if a bunch of orcs scream "hey that troll is killing us", I want to see some evidence. The log here is one obvious piece of evidence. But I won't demote Grand for killing _one_ Orc, for the same reason that I very seldom Saurons list a whitie for murdering _one_ whitie. Grand has been severely warned, and if he continue doing this, he will be punished.

It would make more sense to me to "severely warn" Nahar, and demote Grand.

Check Mayavi's last log 'Morgral dies in warrens' and then he writes this is
what pk is supposed to be like. *stare* not in my eyes

i think it was a ridicoulous move...
very nice, but still silly

its a game, why care so god damn much? *shrug* i cant say i wouldnt be pissed as hell if i was forek... but wtf?

mayavi<=== ass who hasnt got a clue
transe<=== does what shes(hes?) told to do
forek <=== should have ran away
nahar <=== tried to save the day
jandor<=== sucky player at best
GOLDBERG <=== says MAYAVI your next

After seeing how some ppl behave. I must admit i am very happy i dont have a vala. Being forced to listen to such imature foul languages. SIGH. ITS A GAME.

*an Orc* has arrived from the south.
k *man*
k *man*
10 minutes later i will realize to hit *an Orc*

Mayavai, thats one of the most pathetic feats I've ever seen.

I have never known Nahar, an experienced player and from what I remember a good guy, to do anything wrong before. If the managment wants to enforce this it should be a slight demotion or warning, not demote to level 1. It just doesnt seem fair, the transfer wasn't helping him. I think this should have been a news item also, instead of just on this forum. I think Nahar just got mad, and did the wrong thing.

Well, I totally agree with Antar. Deor and Namo thanks for taking time to
explain the state of affairs. I feel sorry for Nahur but can see the valid
points of the ainur.

Wouldn't it have been better to just charge into warrens and
die 'accidentally' without posting this 'look what a hero I am' log.
Then ya might have got away with it.

Anyways, why does everyone get so hung up on linkless kills?
Allwys happened, allways gonna happen. Don't play if yer link
sucks unless yer prepared to die linkless.

Ok, comf anyways.

The rules are clear: no cross-race eq is allowed. HOWEVER, v+ are not subject to rules, and can (RARELY) give permission for rules to be broken - ie in this case for the eq to be given back. It's happened in the past, and maybe we should set some clearer policy for it.....but regardless - do not give eq crossrace without asking a v+ first.

Personally, I sympathise....Nahar is obviously doing this out of some sort of mume "sportsmanship", which is something rather lacking nowadays I think.

Give linkless ppl different targets-keys. Then anyone who wanna kill linkless
will have to explicitly write so. Or if you think its not good idea, tell me why.

I always thought we have rules to make it fair for all whoever play the game.
If it is still possible to play unfair, then rules are not good enough.
Cool ppl that play this game don't need rules. Only lamers like p(Grang, Strine)
need them and yet all you see is they are protected by these rules (justice
system etc). Almost like in RL where the gangsters are actually protected by the
law more than the victims.

*laugh* Deor. I love the rock throwing analogy .... now I picture squads
of kamakazi suicide legends running into Warrens to give back equipment
(of course Nacs already does something like this on a regular basis *tickle*)

The mental pictures aside ... Deor's point is a strong one. As much as I feel
for Nahar and his efforts the higher ups have expressly forbid such actions.

I must also say that this is one of the few truly linkless kills I have seen
posted. There is no doubt about the linkless flag.

responding to Elestir .... then Malavyi will have to make a new alisas
kl => kill 1.linkless *cackle* might possible use that already by labeling his
kills ... label linkless 1.orc

Well. About the rock-throwing analogy, I have this to say. Mume is not a riot.
It is a game, has rules, and real people play it. That does not mean MUME
resembles real life in any way, other than the aforesaid. So since it is a game,
the gamemasters or referees (the ainu, in this case) have to have some sort
of control over what happens in the game. To do this, they lay out a set of
rules. They try to make their interpretation of the rules clear, so there will
be no transgressions by mistake. But sometimes the rules are unclear, and
contradictory. Then the Ainu have to make a verdict.

With me so far? Now let's move on to the point at hand.

There are many things one can do on MUME that can get oneself demoted. One way
is to kill same-side. Another is cross-race eq transfer. Yet another way is
multiplaying. And let's not forget banking. And so on and so forth. If you
violate any of these rules, you're in trouble, and the rules say you will be
demoted.

The problem is, not all people get demoted for breaking these rules. The ainu
have always (or so I thought) tried to base their decision upon how flagrant
the rule-breaking is, whether it was done by mistake, whether it was the first
time and for what purpose it was done, etc etc etc. And I'm sure we can all
name at least several instances where people have gotten away with breaking
these rules, even more than once. And when there has been some sort of
punishment, it has by no means always been demoting to lvl 1.

The above is not subject to dispute; it is fact.

Then I really fail to see how Nahar's case warrants demoting him to level 1,
even when a lot of players (including the more experienced ones) and several
gods have said he showed spirit that MUME is seriously lacking these days. I'd
say that mitigates his circumstances to say the least.

If the gods are afraid of setting an example; that people will come to expect
leniency, they are too late as the example has already been given. The
multitude of people that have got little or no punishment for breaking rules
during the past years has always given players reason to expect, or at least
hope, that they will get away with some serious rule-bending. And I believe that
few of those that got away with little or no punishment had as noble a reason
for doing whatever it was they did, as Nahar had. He certainly didn't do it for
his own personal gain.

So the only reason I can imagine the gods could have to punish him, is so that
they can look strict and in control of the mud. And this is where I have issues.
I work rl with all kinds of people. I'm a prisonguard, work with groups of
teenagers that have behaviour problems, teenagers who have had cancer,
handicapped people and criminals doing community service, to name a few. In the
course of my work and studies in psychology, I've learned that yes, indeed rules
are important to keep control over environments that contain groups of people.
But the rules are only tools for the controller. And you won't meet any
practicing psychologist that won't tell you that sometimes it is neccesary to
bend the rules. You just have to be sure you're bending them for the right
reasons, and that the risk will pay off. I've always thought that rules in
games we play for our leisure are a very good example of this. When you're
playing with your friends, you don't always force any rule of football or bridge
or chess or whatever it is you're playing. You don't argue to death when
playing a non-tournament game of tennis with an acquaintance (sp?) whether or
not that ball was in or out. If he's sure the ball was out, you give him the
point. And vice versa. If it goes both ways, the game flows nicely and you both
have fun. And if he starts saying 'that was out!' whenever you hit the goddamn
ball you put your foot down, of course. It's as simple as that. YOU decide how
things work out. It's not up to the rules or your opponent only, but YOURSELF.
If you're insecure or somehow afraid of taking control, you're in trouble.
Because that will either mean that you slavishly adhere to any written letter
in the rules, and enforce them ruthlessly, or you let your opponent have his
way and take one up the heinie every time you bend over for the soap, which your
opponent keeps throwing to the floor. You get the picture.

So I'm saying that there is no problem here. The gods CAN decide to be lenient
in Nahar's case, as what he did was extremely evidently not done for his own
benefit (unless he gets off on the attention, in which case I say: Let Him!).
And if players start assuming that they can transfer eq freely by suiciding to
darkies, put your foot down. It's as simple as this. You have control, so take
it. Using your judgment can never be worse than not using it.

This is a long comment, and I'm sorry about that, but I hope someone is still
reading these old log comments. If you do, please reply here what you think, or
mumemail me @Cur or @Roadkill. :-)