*comf poros* You were unlucky :)

Ghostly asked in a comment to some other log for ideas to prevent the boring
playstyle some people are employing from ruining the game. So I decided to put
an idea here, though it has nothing to do with this log (which isn't worthy of
a comment in any case, just a chuckle or so).

I've said earlier that the ability to group should be removed entirely and xp
from mobs/kills divided between ppl in room at the time of kill according to
level and damage done (pretty much as it is now when groups kill). And that the
leadership skill should be changed radically. A maximum of 2 people should be
allowed to follow a leader, and the leadership skill should mostly only affect
noise from those 3 and mounts, and movecost (possibly there should be a slight
movedelay which leadership might affect, though not eliminate).

And the spell 'Breath of Briskness' could be changed as follows: The base mana
cost should remain as is. However, when cast upon more than 1 person, the mana
cost should multiply times the number of persons the spell is cast upon. So that
if a caster casts bob on self and 1 other, the mana cost is doubled, and if the
spell is cast on the caster and a group of 7 others, the mana cost is 8 times
the base cost. The effect of a bob should remain as it is, with fewer moves
added to each recipient the more recipients there are.

This would make huge groups less mobile and (hopefully) therefore a less viable
option in pk. People moving solo, or in ones and twos would hardly feel a thing.
In fact, this would encourage people to move solo (I think) once most have
adapted to the change and pracced bob. So it would be totally possible to move
as a warrior or thief and bob self, and mages and clerics would be less likely
to make a career of slavebobbing.

Anyone like?

I like big fights actually, once in awhile, but not a bad idea

This wouldn't prevent huge fights. It would just make spamming all over Arda
a bit harder and slower for groups of 6-20.

Cur, I am very unsure that we are playing the same MUD. Bobbing clerics is not the problem which creates large groups. Its the assholes who find it fun to group with 6 of their mates and either sit around trapping, or pursue every lone member of the other side they come across in a mad blood-rush. Its beyond belief that you want to solve this problem by crippling what is already the most difficult class on Mume to play effectivly, for pity's sake whats next, tripling the mana-cost for Harm since dispell evil has all but been neutered!?! Bear in mind also that clerics have lousy moves, are seriously disadvantaged in pk for lack of offense and defense already, and now you want to prevent them from having any chance of getting away? Christ Cur, Draught asked for idea's, I think he was assuming that people would use their head a little firstthough. You can't change the way the kiddies play this MUD by ruining what balence already exists, you have to work on the people, not the game mechanics. They'll soon get bored.

well, i for one agree with cur. bobbers are a big part of groups, and
if bobbing a group of 7 took all their mana, hugegroups would be cut down
bigtime. also, i like the idea that was put out some other time of having
to manually follow to have a big group (maybe 1 or 2 can follow a leader)
or that in a big group, you randomly lose people (damns stragglers!).
if someone could tell me where i could learn to code, i would happily
do it and help with the process.
-Zoone Zaramir

Well I am unsure you have thougt this through, Stumpy. This change does
nothing to clerics as such. The mana cost of bobbing will be the same for a solo
cleric moving around. However, if you -have- to be a slavebobber for a large
group, this will affect you. The only thing this change would accomplish is
make large groups unable to spam all the way across Arda without ever having
to rest for moves or mana, thus reducing their mobility. The mobility of solo
characters or people moving in pairs would be relatively unaffected (I'd
underscore 'relatively'). I think the mud needs to move toward (and even force)
players to play more solo or in smaller groups (at least, that's the main problem on the mud I'M playing - don't know about you). This would be best
accomplished imho by disadvantaging large groups in some way, without taking
anything away from people playing solo/duo or even trio. Making large groups
less mobile and slower, not only by movedelay but also in the long run, would
enable solo players to outrun them and stand a better chance and therefore
making large groups a less viable option for pk (but still a possibility, mind).

Zoone, the only difference crippling BOB and leadership would make would be to encourage the labbies. Real Life Real time communication is already a big enough advantage. the only folks who need regular bobs are the casters, playing a warrior with 140+ mps and spamming all over arda w/out bob is already a no-brainer. The pair of you want to eliminate clerics for some reason? Perhaps make em as fun to play as a warrior who can only kick and charge??? Introduce max group sizes for the rooms ( particularly underground or 'inside' rooms) rather than destroy the leadership skill. Its hard enough for those playing with a piss poor link as it is, and you want to give the fast-linked and/or labbies an even bigger advantage? Your the kind of kid who only plays computer games with the walkthrough to hand aren't you?

I concur...heh get it? Hmm well you know, small things and all that...

Cur for PM!

I like the idea of any group above a certain size randomly losing members.
Then a solo player could fight effectively against a group. Clueless followers
could all of a sudden find themselves not knowing exactly where they are and in
a 1 on 1 fight. To be reallistic, make it so that you don't lose people nearly
as often if you are on a road. I guess the occasional follower dropping
should also be dependent on how long you have been in the room, so that you
lose more if you are spamming along at high speed. I also think group bob should
be toned down some too, but not necessarily that way.

Cur -- you ever tried playing a solo cleric in pk for any length of time? You can't, cos you'll rip too quick. As for keeping groups of 3 or less, you must have a short memory of Norsu and Co. terrorizing the newbies on gway and fornost if you think that this makes the game in any way 'fairer' for solo chars. Crippling BOB for groups only achieves eliminating clerics as a decent class to play, it does nothing to prevent 6+ warriors spamming all over arda (cos with max wilderness/endurance who the hell ever needs bobbed?). Yes supergroup pk is a problem, No you dont sort it by using these ill-conceived idea's.

I agree with Stumpy too, limited group sizes in rooms would help a great deal. Although, having said that, you could get the situation where you are fighting 3v3 in a room with 6 people in it max and there are several other people around from each side. The first person to flee is going to be replaced and you could have a fight of 4v2 all of a sudden, and noone can help by entering the room. Then again another person might flee to be replaced by a foe and its 5v1. Sorry this is rather convoluted and crazy but im hung-over, but you can see that even though this is an extreme case, there are occasions when having room limits would severely fuck people over.

I agree with Stumpy too, limited group sizes in rooms would help a great deal. Although, having said that, you could get the situation where you are fighting 3v3 in a room with 6 people in it max and there are several other people around from each side. The first person to flee is going to be replaced and you could have a fight of 4v2 all of a sudden, and noone can help by entering the room. Then again another person might flee to be replaced by a foe and its 5v1. Sorry this is rather convoluted and crazy but im hung-over, but you can see that even though this is an extreme case, there are occasions when having room limits would severely fuck people over.

MOFO computer!!

Ehum.. Why not implement an extra value like max persons that can be in room.
Field should have great number but a small cave should of course prevent large
groups to enter, at least enter all at once.

Err never mind.. Just a clueless thought.

Personally I play to have fun, which for me means having a good time with other
folks.. You are treating the game like an arcade and making changes based on
what -some- people do -sometimes-. Ever since I started MUME, changes have
been made constantly to downgrade the speed of play, the effectiveness of
skills, and the power of classes. Why? All because the arcade-game-pk-crowd
abused links/labs, skills, and classes and game mechanics. I think MUME is
no better or worse for it, just vastly different.

My point here though, is that not everyone plays for so-called 'solo' play, and
many enjoy a good time with friends. Personally I find solo play boring and
lonely, and you can still solo play all you want; just be ready for the enemy
to team up against you.

Hugegrouping is nowhere near anything new.. People whined and whined in 95 and
96 about the ford fights and the escalating group sizes. They've imped group
lag, melee, line of sight, hit delay, universal lag per each room moved outside
of cities, 3 commands per second limit, got rid of 90% of the bottlenecks, made
alternate routes to get from point A to point B, expanded zones to make it
easier to flee, and moved warrens, orc caves, and quadrupled the size of the
MUD. Most if not all of it to combat the arcade game pkers who use and/or
abuse the game mechanics to their powerplaying advantage.

It seems you want to make another change along these lines by implementing
code that hinders grouping. I agree with Stumpy on the point about where the
real problem is. The problem is not the code, its the players. If NSL plays
whitie or darkie, the whole game balance shifts as a result. If Norsu and
his friends play one side, the whole game balance shifts as a result. If
Czechpack or Elestir and friends plays one side, the game balance shifts as
a result. Not saying that these particular players fall into this category,
but, you are NEVER going to change the players by implementing code. We could
have required sleep every 16 tics for 8, no grouping allowed, player OB/PB/DB
decreased by 50, items downgraded drastically, and whatever else you want to
put in because XYZ is too powerful, and you are STILL going to have overpowered
items, skills, links, classes, or game mechanics that give advantage to people
who see the advantages and use or abuse them.

Start attracting a different playerbase than the arcade game kids who are out
to 'screw everyone else's fun' or who have 'boring playstyle' or whatever you
want to call it, and maybe things will change. I'm not even so sure there are
that many people who fit into whatever descriptions you'd like to give them.

If they implemented this group and bob stuff, groups of 2 and 3 would become
'overpowered,' and solo high level clerics and mages will become 'overpowered.'
It doesn't change the game, it changes the face of it.

Personally I enjoy a good chat with friends while I play, I'm not the arcade
game pk-powerplayer type.. which is who you want to -cater- to? Get real.

PK summary:
X goes out solo meets Y.
Y and X fight, X loses and flees.
X grabs friend Z.
X and Z go to fight Y again, Y loses, flees, and calls in A and B.
A, B, and Y go to fight X and Z, X and Z lose.... repeat ad infinitum.

It is unusual that pk goes in other directions when the numbers are so close
I.E. 1 on 1, then 1 on 2, etc. Very few players will pass up an opportunity
to get a kill if it means calling in more numbers. And if they do, it's out of
their own pride. So, if you make 1-3 person groups, the game is still going
to have the same 'Let's get more people on our side' effect. I bet that
trapping would go up -TONS-, because it would be even harder to kill people.
Anyway, long enough comment

dont change 'group' command.
dont change how exp is divided.
dont change BOB.

BUT allow only one person to 'follow' another, and if you yourself are a 'follower' of another char, you cannot lead anyone else. This makes
movement of large groups more difficult, with at least half of the group
having to coordinate their movements. Also would aid in educating those who
normally follow to learn the map as well as the handful who always lead.

lesse.. whatelse..
perhaps the limit on players *per side* in a underground, closable room would
work. For example:
An Abandoned cellar-
max 2 trolls or 4 orcs/bns.. no more darkies could enter room, but possible
for 4 men to enter, not more.. might help the whole 'overtrapping' thing.

or perhaps place a delay on all close door commands.. alowing for the victims to
get some chance at fleeing out afore the slaughter begins. should there also
be delay on open door? prob not. fair? not seemingly, but effective? probably. This game isnt about realism, but player enjoyment and entertainment.

Didn't let my paragraph breaks go through...

Turn MUME how MUME 6 was!

I disagree totally with you ppl who say clerics are unplayable solo. And if you
find them so hard, maybe you should play something else? Anyway, I can't
accept that the only way you can justify playing a cleric in MUME is if you can
be a slavebobber for a group - any class should be able to perform solo (and
is, imho).

Hmm... I've decided stop whining about this and that, I personally am going to do anything i can to win, using the rules of the game, if everyone plays by the rules (you CAN poison CAN have hugegroups ect ect....) it will be a crazy mud but some people gonna enjoy it and some arent, those who enjoy are ones who make smart decisions as when to poison and when to stay in safe ect..

Scrape is right, read his comment above. Its not impossible to fight solo now, in fact lots of people do it. You just only hear whines from people who try to do it and get hugegrouped. As it is and always will be, the whiners will always have more of a voice then those happy with way things are.

Cur's ideas about bob wouldn't force clerics to play solo. A cleric paired with a warrior (or two) would still be perfectly playable. The thing that would change is having clerics act like gas tanks for large groups spamming from one end of the map to the other, running down and nuking every solo player that pops into view.

The easiest solution is to ban labs. One player per host per time.

limiting ppl in rooms would be a new way to trap. Have max number of ppl in room n and max number of ppl in room s then target can't flee. I don't like the idea.

I agree with most of what Stumpy and Scrape said. I don't like getting overkilled, and I am often solo. But I also often play in groups. Sometimes I feel like playing solo and sometimes in a group.

I don't think your proposal Cur will help that much, cos warriors don't need bob. It's only the casters and 'scouts'(!) that nead it. We will just get big warrior groups instead. And it will do nothing to hinder trapping or portalling.

Also smobbing would be tedious with your proposal and large groups are sometimes needed for this.

I'm a 15 con slashing warrior. I have a shit u.s. link. I have ventured east of bree (!) and only have been killed on three occasions-- all solo. I have seen Norsu groups moving 'bout (when i saw him he was with Caress, Pinhead, and one other 40+ warrior). It's not hard to avoid hugegroups on other side it's just disillusioning is all. Whether you make a big deal of it or not, we all have these supposed MUME battles where you find the *enemy* and best him/her in a battle of wits, winning through your skills and power. I think it's actually out of character if a group of 5+ pukes find a *orc* or *elf* or what have you and kill him. I would think they would sneer and taunt the enemy, take his/her gold , and send his/her ass on fire back to whatever hole they crawled out of, telling him to tell those uruks/ologs/legends back at his/her place that they're next. I mean come on, in the "Hobbit" (performed as a book-on-tape from the fine people at BBC) i think bert was the one who had Bilbo hung by his toes saying "The poor lil' blighter. Let's let 'im go."

It seems there's a lot of high level players that aren't that great who got to a high level just by being in super huge groups all the time and spamming *assist*. I'm not knocking anyone, and can't really see a solution to all the blandness of play right now, but perhaps if it wasn't so easy to spam level by being in a huge group, people would get a better feel for how the game out ta be. *shrug*..I only have 4 int so bear w/me

This whole mume.net thing seem's to have brought out the worst in all of us with the comments as well...

Christ sorry for all the spam outta my mouth....
Maybe all of the higher Ainu could have a forum amongst themselves, discussing their ideas about the problem, and then log it here for the rest of us mortals to discuss....last one i promise

Well although it did surprise me, killing a level 3 bn is hardly worth posting.

About what Scrape (I think) said about MUME as an arcade game. Well, MUME isn't
that far from being an arcade game because both MUME and arcade games are
computer games. And any kind of computer game (unless it's a turn-based strategy
game or a boardgame) involves reaction time as an element. To a varying degree,
certainly but nonetheless it is an important aspect of the game. This is kind of
beside the point, though. Because if what you mean by MUME becoming an arcade
game that people will run around like a character in Mortal Kombat kicking other
people and getting kicked, or that the game will become like a couple or three
teenagers playing a shoot-em-up arcade game in multiplayer mode, I think you're
thinking along the wrong lines. Certainly it's possible to play MUME like that,
and people often do. I mean, Darkun and Lurken, Gargamel and Kilroy, Macros and
Maran, or any combination of characters that have teamed up a lot during the
past, romping around MUME and killing anything in sight? Sure, it's sometimes
like a shoot-em-up. But there are important differences. Those who think MUME
has only recently started to resemble a 3Dshootemup like Quake are dead wrong.
There has been a certain element of that in the game since I started playing,
and that was (too many) years ago. What -has- happened, is that changes to
the game's code have increasingly made it appealing to people to move in large
groups to pk. Don't dispute this, because I really can't be bothered to refute
whatever arguments you try to drag up against it. Let's just accept this as a
fact for now. Besides, you won't find many old players disagreeing with this.
This has made the game boring for those of us who play it for fun - the thrill
of adrenaline-packed hunts with just yourself or a couple of friends at most.
This has never prevented 'chatting with friends' or any kind of social activity.
In fact, I seem to remember MUME as anything but less of a social phenomenon
way back when. Anyhow, the changes I propose to grouping and following don't
make socializing with friends or hunting in mobs impossible - just slower.
You can still move in throngs around noc or bree or whatever - the tagalongs
just have to move more manually. If anything, I see that as encouraging people
to explore and know the mud, not just trust in the leader's skills to see them
safely through any dangers and back home. And when large groups are required to
smob, this in no way prevents that. Again, the ones who know the directions will
simply have to guide the ones that don't verbally - talk them through it - the
first few times. I think this would actually be a great thing too, because the
few privileged who know the more harsh areas of MUME well - smob areas with
heaps of agg mobs, deathtraps and mazes, are -very- frequently reluctant to give
away information (usually received through acquaintances to a god or having a
god yourself - sometimes only the people who actually build and test zones have
any idea what's in them and how they work, which gives them an advantage that
is unfair imho). This would make information more readily available to others
who are less 'in the know'. And again, that would enable more people to move
independently around the mud, making them more likely to explore and thus
reducing the number of legends sitting in bree waiting for some leader to lead
them on the next trip through smobs/moria/pk because they don't know any areas
more than 3 zones away from bree or greyhavens. I fail to see how this makes
MUME more arcade than it already is. Of course, I also fail to see how a
computer game can ever be anything other than a bit 'arcade' by definition,
but that's me ;-) (sorry about the length of this comment, but I like it
when we can discuss ideas like this without wisecracks, patronizing or pretence,
and I think it's good for the mud to have these kinds of threads pop up every
once in a while. It only works if you ppl participate in it, though, so start
reading!)

...and can we please get at least some kind of paragraph breaks back here or
something? :-)

I agree totaly with scrape, sure it can be fun to go solo once in a while but that
doesnt last long. I personally enjoy grouping with friends goofing off exping pk
whatever. I didn't like cur's idea but atleast he had one, and I think its good
that he tries to help the game.

Lotsa long comments, talking to nobody but yourself, write some ideas on mume instead :)

I agree with both of your points (Scrape & Cur). The problem is, fundamentally,
is the playerbase today. In the past, and I mean WAY past, there was a different
kind of player. A player who didn't necessarly prefer to be in a HUGE group
because no one did it. The problem is the players today. The players today prefer
to group in big groups to counter a few lab groups that dominate. And, as I said
before, until these lab groups who play in packs realize they're runing the game
for others, things will not change. I remember a certain comment I got from a
lab member - (I told him I'm probably going to leave because of the unbalance) -
he responded by saying "good, we don't need you hear anyways." That about sums
it up. Steele the too-old-to-care--to-play-as-much-anymore.

Nice typos - been working on code all day and the screen is quite blury!

How about limiting numbers of players able to fight another player a bit more ?

Like 2:1 or something.. Did you ever see or hear about a rl fight where there were more than 2 people actually hitting the target at the same time ? There simply isn't room!

If you thow a fireball or shoot something, and there's mele, it should actually hit the buffer in the back!

This could be a solution to the "overkilling-group" thingy.. Of cause, if you have a healthy group you may switch buffers (rescue or flee), but that's the only advantage a hougegroup will give ya then :) Just my thoughts..

ohh.. I got another idea too: How about max 2 engaged arriving from 1 direction ? If a group enters a room from the west, only 2 can attack 1, but if 2 more come from the east, they may attack the 1 too ?!? Prolly stupid idea, but I wrote them down anyways!

*blush* there's no mele for a caster is there ? *gig self* well, you know what I mean...

The PROBLEM with mume, is that it has no possibility for roleplay,
ZERO. There are SOOooo many things mume could add to make it
more of a roleplay game rather then what it is but the implementers
do not want it so. (The more detailed descriptions of characters,
The introduction system of meeting people, Guilds, more player-run
options like stores banks or guilds, more descriptive and useful
skills (Give a thief climb walls, safe fall, scouting ability,
and some other goodies and you'd see a lot more people marvelling
at their character, and playing more realistic, and the same
can be said for mages clerics and warriors)).

Simply put, mume is too simple of a mud. There simply isn't enough to do character-development-wise. Making things rely more on a persons
character and skill (such as the removal of magical items, and instead
replaced with a more varied stat/desc variety of weapons) rather then
how fast/effective they can slay people to sup up their character, and
people will play A lot differently.

Combat, as well, should be made more Role Play. Hit flee, spell flee,
spam close/open. This is the stupidest fight system I've ever seen.
It should be made more automated, more realistic, and more descriptive.

While I'm bitching about all this, Mume is expanding rather quickly,
but imo that is stupid. All that time should instead go into improving
the mud. For it's player size the world is too big already.
More features and improvements should first be put in, more bugs worked
out, and more thoughts about the game placed forward before any
more work is done on these silly zones (which most likely will
never open anyways due to the absentee of A+ lately)

As a final note I completely agree with everything Cur has said,
and if that dude ever writes a MUD I will so play it. I also
really like all his previous comments on MUME ideas in an
older log, of which it seems none were taking into consideration :(

Ok 3am here time to sleep

I'm sure the labs will have fun when there are 4 remaining labs left to fight
each other. Basically the game will have degraded to team deathmatch Quake3. :P

Well, posting ideas on boards in mume does not give the response you get here.. post an idea, and you almost never ever hear about it again. In here, people reply to your idea :) + it's a lot easier reading this board than the mume boards.

I understand that ppl complain about hugegroups, but all this elitist
solo-pk shit kinda irritates me. Mume isn't a solo, fair fight pk mud. If you
want that, play pk-europe or some other all-against-all mud.
Here are two of my ideas that I think would improve mume:
Remove the leadership skill (to make pk grops of more than 3 ppl slower)
and remove the narrate-command and all other global social commands, these
just ruin any attempt to get into a fantasy-atmosphere, spam the screen
and make the world seem a lot smaller. (Yes I know you can turn them off,
but as long as they are there, it's a disadvantage to not here em.)

Oki here is my opinion.
The problem with mume is NOT that it has no possibility for roleplay, it is just because almost all people don't roleplay so it's extremly hard for others to releplay and "have some good results in pk vs those who are just looking for pk and getting wps or so". You can roleplay, but you will loose a lot in pk.
I totaly agree with what Scrape wrote. "Almost" all the problems are from people and not from mume mechanism. Well but u have to take care about one think which what not mentioned here. It's that mume is not only about pk, it's also about exping, smobing, having fun like this "u can call it roleplay maybe too" and in this case u need groups and hugegroups also. I would like to see 3 groups of 2-3 ppl doing balrog (gig), dragon or so, can be funny. But maybe i saw here one great idea from Zoone.
"... or that in a big group, you randomly lose people ..."
I think it is great point to be leadership completly recoded. It can work realy well, imagine with 0% leadership u can lead max 1 ppl and don't loose him in each 3th room, with 50+% it can be like 3 ppl with 100% it can be maybe 6-7 and u can let the delay and noise to still work. This way can be much more effective vs huge groups that leadership how it works now (you can lead 100 with 0% u loose noone but just get delay and noise). It's not posible to prevent "natural" leaders like Pandion or Elestir or Smrtihlav from leading huge groups but u can make it a bit harder for them. It will also force ppl to learn more zones themself when they get lost from group or the group will have to wait for them and it slows it down. Well i wrote enough, but maybe someone from mume management can think about this a bit :).

Btw: I don't undestand the posts here about quiting mume to get life rl. Why u can't enjoy your rl life and play mume just for fun when u have nothing better to do in rl ?

That was one of the best ideas I've heard in a long time. I cant WAIT to
see how many I would kill if there was no HUGE groupes after me!
And Scrape, I strongly dislike your playingstyle but you are also totally
right about what you say. Everyone dont like to "hunt" or being "solo". I
personally loved to be grouped with people before, always since it was RP
and very fun (with hobbits mind you). But later on I see so many newbies
on with really bad attitudes (nsl) so I try to walk in the shadows, totally
alone and not talking to anyone (if I play at all that is). Point being,
I look at it from a pk-aspect, and I really like the idea. But MUME would
be a really BORING game with only pk, or no pk, so this is a great dilemma
worth thinking carefully about before deciding.

Why the fuck is whole comment in one block (paragraph), break-lines are not working anymore or so ? (maybe i missed some change, in this case sorry)

I totally disagree with anyone that wants to limit the number of people in a group or in a room. Its pure socialism. I often play solo, yes as a nonbobbing warrior and i get kills that way. Its your choice if u want to play solo or not and if u like hugegrouping? Go ahead and do it. I think its fun when 20 pukes raid warrens. Huge clashes are really cool.
Furthermore i think that mume.net needs more porn. Really. Ive never found a comment that made me wanna jerk off which didnt contain porn.

I tried to roleplay some, but it is kinda hard in mume. You can't so thinks like making applepies, while
they have apples, flour, milk for butter, and eggs. Also you can't make clotes from rabbit furs or any other furs,
except wristbands, and belts.
Time to emphazise on roleplaying quests etc would nice. Because quests now have nothing, nothing to
do with roleplay.

Does the management want us to roleplay? (Acoording to the statement they give when you lofg
on yes) but in mume itself NO.

i didnt bother reading all of this, but..
if you have a group.. you can just stand in a room and its an blocked exit since the darkies cant enter it.. neither can the pukes.
so just put 2 large groups in each end of an corridor and you trapped someone..
so that idea is not tooooo bright i say... but.. this change would only promote the trappers i think.. but lets think about them later..
nod self

Cur had some good ideas about decreasing hugegroups, but I disagree that bob spell should be messed with. Some chars such as mages and clerics with low con/high age have to bob very often, compared to some dwarf warriors who dont even ride but never have to bob anyhow. That would totally screw the caster who has to spend a shitload of mana every time to bob if theres another person in the room.

I think leadership skill should just go away completely, and groups should get more and more grouplag for every member over 3 with no limit (so a group of 10 would take a lot of time to move), and make more noise the bigger the group gets. This wouldnt require too much change in the game, and it would still make supermobs possible to do with little or no adjustments.

You are always gonna have the dorks who portal around and sit in a closeable waiting for people to enter and die, but this change would decrease that same group's ability to chase down anyone who escaped the initial attack, and take away some mobility from the hugegroups that spam all over. The most important thing tho is that it would really piss people off when they get huge grouplag from too many groupmembers, so they would start shedding them off to get rid of the lag.

someone once suggested that randomly from time to time followers should just
stop following - kinda like ZBLAM

"What -has- happened, is that changes to the game's code have increasingly made
it appealing to people to move in large groups to pk." --- I completely
disagree. Hugegroups were even more prominent years ago, and in numbers like
15-20 as opposed to 6-12; they had no group delay, no melee, no line of sight,
etc etc either. About roleplaying- management would love to make
MUME more roleplayish (RE Nazgum), but they aren't prepared to do the massive
overhaul that would be needed to give MUME a better atmosphere, a non-arcade
atmosphere.

I have ideas but too long to post here even in 3 parts:) 1st-war, 2nd-rangers, 3rd-RP. War has no great reason anymore, just endless killing. Should be some results (area conquring, more than DT fights). Sauron wanted hole world, free folks wanted to destroy evil for peace. Rangers-zero. With good imagination you can think 'ho! i'm Ranger of North'. But nothing famliliar with LotR rangers (except helping part). My ideas were banished (tho 'law and rangers' is not best idea and was just sudden try:). They should be atleast in neutral status but alas!- at bree rangers rent is double:). And RP-you can if you want. I did rp, was great fun with fellows. But if theres only few persons who care about RP you feel kinda foolish... So turning off narrate channel (by code) is one possible conclusion... Sample how hugegrps gather-*Legend1 nar '4 orcs abr, need backup'. legend2-6 'coming, stick around'. Point-if you can't handle solo, retreat. It's true if one side, let's say whities, calls backup, other calls double...logich. More fun also when gods want changes... Agree in some points with scrape-cur-stumpy-berin... (And even than changes we need to get back old times when hugegrps were only for brave raid-trolls deep in shire or pukes all over noc). Sorry btw if typos, i type fast...:)

Nice stealing my idea for x per room and not giving me credit for it.
If you look back a few logs I suggested taking some major pkill areas
and bottlenecks and limit them to a certain # of people who can occupy
that room at once. If the Imps are looking for ways to make MUME more
fair and playable in these hostile times, the clues and signs are right
before your noses. As Celorfilas said, in so many words, ban lab play #1
fucking rule. Noone is jealous of you guys. We are just tired of seeing
you run around in hugegroups, poisoning and waiting in the same traps over
and over. Sure its fun for you. Come play our link and see how fun it is.
We cant look over at our buddy and say 'hey come guard my corpse at X'...

get rid of Narrates and make a newbie channel or some shit for those that
need it. The atmosphere of the game will increase 10 fold when you don't
know whats going on.

Im somewhat shocked and amazed that apparently some Imm (Im too lazy to
scroll up) actually asked somewhere on here for ideas to make the game a
bit better in gameplay and get rid of the huge groupering...Dont do it here
for Christs sake! Have an account poll or special board set up on MUME to
do it. If you want ideas Im sure players will be more than ecstatic to
actually be listened to, but MUME.net is hardly the forum.

Last note, someone was talking about the players who don't huge group and
who actually hunt solo or in small groups. Hey take heart, we are a minority
but there are actually quite a few people on the game who DO play like this.
I've been going maybe 4 1/2 yrs now, and I've always made it a point to
hunt/exp solo, although grouping with friends is fun too. No I don't just
play thief either, but I wanna stick up for thieves once again and say this
... say what you wanna say but playing def warriors or off smiting warriors
is the most boring, unskillful class you could ever learn to play on this game.
It seems those that do well at it (as if it were hard) seem to only play those
type of characters, but they the same ones who whine about thieves or over-
powered mages. Try some variety kids, its the spice of life.

I agree, ban fakking labs

To Grimble: Well, mages would have to be careful to bob only in rooms where they
are alone, of course, but that shouldn't be too hard, and the mana cost for
bobbing self would be the same as before, so no changes there.

To Scrape: you have a point. I phrased that perhaps a bit inaccurately. It is
true that way back when you would see huge groups running around without los or
move delay, but back then it was -very much an option- for people to hunt solo
or in twos. In fact, it was so successful when compared to running around in
those boring groups, that most people preferred to hunt that way, since the
gains were higher. As it is now, people have been steered into the huge groups,
because other options have become less feasible in comparison.

I think one reason you don't see as much solo play these days is attack and
flee (the change where you cannot hit someone if you have fled with the past
2-3 seconds) and the fact that solo people are less powerful than they used
to be. Used to be mages with locate life that could locate orcs, backstab as
good as a thief, and a 170+ defense; not to mention their teleport with no lag
and arsenal of spells. Thieves used to be easier to solo play
as well.. no covering lights, no heavy mp loss for sneaking, and easy to
backstab, tho that class has sucked at certain times over the past few years.
One cool thing now, though, is that you dont lose 1675432098 moves walking on
foot like you used to. Used to get exhausted so easy.. but what was I saying..
I think groups of 3-4 should be ideal.. and they are these days for most stuff.
Sometimes I think it would be cool to bring back other versions of MUME (along
with the players of those times).. but then I realize that it wasnt really
all that much better.. just different. And in the past you had to play just
as paranoid as you do today, for fear of locate/portal, wizkill groups, or
stabbers. Now its fear of locate/portal, traps, poisons, and sometimes wizkill
groups. However, I think it is much harder to wizkill someone with a group
these days than it used to be, much harder. For all the reasons I listed above.

So, like I said, changes to the code have made it increasingly appealing for
people to hunt in throngs rather than solo or duo. Right? :-) And I think that
groups of 3-4 shouldn't be -ideal-, I think that numbers between 1-3 (or 4)
should all be equal options, none of them better or worse on the whole than
the others.

Scrape - are you saying that they should remove the 'You cant fight and flee at the same time' thing? If they did that people on slow links would die even quicker than they do now and the fast-linked Europeans would be laughing all the way to the bank.

*nod* Reef

I see your point.. attack and flee helps slow linked people. However, its
removal would be one of the best changes to improve solo character power.
Don't think it will happen anyway..

Well, you can still use the hit/flee technique - you just have to wait a bit in between, spam a few rooms away or something. It works for Roadkill just fine (until he runs out of moves, that is).

...and he does less damage per hit than your average smiting puke warrior. Go figure.

totally agrees with what scrape said