I just have to add that later Dain claimed that other A agreed with him, at which point none of the A I approached knew about it. Dain has been idle all the time or said that he's busy at work. In addition to losing all levels Dain scrambled the password and refused to retire the char, thus dooming one of the nicest pk trophies around. Plus the changing the name to afdfasdfasda or something for public mockering :). Anyone else feel "fairly treated"?

I think some of the comments given all over the boards and sites have rather
made taking back the decision impossible. All those comments about how "you
two only tried to be fair" and the like spoilt it. Because thats not even
close to the point. And I guess that management (absolutely no insights here!)
just feels that taking back the punishment now would only encourage players
to play whatever they think is fair instead of sticking to the rules.

The punishment IS way too hard btw...*SIGH*

Well Same thing happend to me once. Or not really same, 1 levels demote for some
eqcheat (giving back eq to some puke who died linkless) then the vala who demoted
though it was a OK way to return eq, but since I already got the demote they couldn't
change it since it was the gods policy not to change something they have already done
(In this case the punishment)

punishment.

Oh, remove the last punishment!

Yes, nuking 40 levels and giving back let's say 30 levels really encourages ppl to do things. And "not close to the point" can fuck off, we were looking for a 1:1 fight that the game is unable to deliver, bottom line.

i read it, i w/ you 135.2%

Another final point, but since so much is at stake I don't want to sweep things under the carpet and say "move on already!". (A) Dain knows my opinion on the situation, and I haven't backed him into a corner by defending his actions. I'm afraid you cannot have my private views on the matter. (B) One reason the duel wasn't stopped was we were not 100% sure what was planned. For all I knew O and SB were going to gang up on some Tharbad mobs to mutual gain. If that had been the case you would both have been 1st level and there would not be such a furore. As it was you fought one another which as you point out, should only affect one or the other of you. However, I do not share that view. Dain was not scapegoating but through these posts on mume.net you have promoted the message that those who duel cross-side will get harsh treatment if caught: precisely the kind of message that will prevent others from similar lapses of judgement.

yeah the punishment was way to hard! tho i recommend you to read the text again and this time listen to Bob Dylan - The Hurricane =þ

I think the punishment was kind of harsh also, but sometimes
you have to put your feet in the shoes of the creators of a
game we really like to play who seemed to get bitched at
constantly instead of complimented. Running a MUD can be very
frustrating as any Imp can attest. Shit happened tho, lets move on

Wouldn't it be better if the Valas jailed the offenders and discussed the matter with the other gods on some kind of court-board? By doing that a descission can be made which can't point out a single person to blame, and furthermore give the gods involved some time to think. It also actually gives the offender time to think, plus an official chanel to defend him/herself.
This would also make the rl friends of high gods "touchable", since all gods would have a saying.

Sorry, my network broke down... so I tried to salvage my post by cut and paste. It looks kinda silly, but I think you get the idea.

For a player that has been here way befor me.. and i have been here for a LONG time. its funny how thay show there thanks for makeing the mud how it is today.
i mean... everyone knows stormblast.. most ppl started when he was a legend...
and you for once want a fiar fight.. in RP reasons.. and thay deside to rip it
all from you with no questions asked.. that to me is unfair.. to alot of ppl
mume is a world to escape from the hell we live in right now.. (in my case its after work :P) anyway.. i would defend stormblast to the end.. i saw the log.. i did not see anything that would be remotly punishable by -40 lvls.. or even -1 lvl.. we have all stood and talked to a dwarf or elf or asked for a fair fight..
or even yelled nasty words back and forth.. whats the difrence from standing in
the same room and asking for a fair fight or standing 5 rooms away and yelling
to eachother?... there is no difrence.. in my view thay both wanted to try something thay have never tryed.. and got demoted to lvl 1 for it..

Well comf to both of ya again for such a sucky end, but at least p(Stormblast) will never have a problem finding group/eq to exp with, so i suggest it's time to level a new bn :P

-Agrees with Stormblast.
-Agrees with Filif.
-Has participated in duels in the past and does not understand what the big deal is. When there is absolutely no pk to be found by random chance, why not set something up so that both parties actually have a little fun. Do you think Nazgum or I could EVER kill each other out in the open (Well me or anyone for that matter since i lack the -finishing touch- skill present in labswedes)? Hell no, so why not set up a duel where the stakes are high for everybody yet the chance for the kill is equal. Its the exact same scenario as outside, but with a blocked door, noone has the chance to escape. Trust me when I say that I never would have done this for personal gain as we always left the equipment in corpse for the dude to reclaim and start over in. Demote me if you like, but since a game is supposed to offer fun for the player, I see no harm in trying to create your own fun as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

I would really like to hear some gods comment on the pros and cons of duelling. I think you fear that the only reason this asinine rule is in place is because the high and almighty deems it so. Well perhaps Manwe would like to justify this rule as well? I am not trying to sound cocky in any way, and I apologize if I come across that way, but a lawmaker should be able to at least tell the populace he is trying to "protect" why it is in place.

One of the gods involved (Maedhros?) mentioned in the other log how a duel could be set up without violating the current rules. So it -is- possible to duel under the current rule, what the rule is preventing is 'safe' dueling (see other topic for why this prevention is desired). //paragraph// I still say that it was the mume players who sealed St/O's fate (if it is in fact sealed). So many of them responding with gross verbal abuse to the incident couldn't possibly have made matters any better. Whether this abuse should have had an effect I'm not going to argue, but I do know that human nature is going to -make- it have an effect. You can't call someone a 'fucking piece of shit', and 'asshole', a 'fucking asshole', etc., etc., ad endless nauseum, and expect them to respond to that in a calm, rational, nice manner. I'd suggest that next time this community wants something badly from the people who run it, that they behave like something other than rabid dogs with tourette's syndrome.

Vorlin, when players attempt to have a reasonable discussion of issues on this site they are inevitably "shot down" with a fuck you etc. The more I read here the less I feel that this site is an appropriate forum for meaningful debate. Perhaps an account system could remedy this situation? I was fourtunate to have a good discussion with Gothmog on this matter and I think it boils down to this: i) Stormblast/olorion broke the rules and needed to be punished, ii) Dain did not attempt to mitigate or temper the punishment based on some fairly clear mitigating circumstances, iii) the V+ are now backed into a rather awkard position of seeming either uncaring by not reducing the punishment or reduce the punishment and indirectly condemn Dain's actions.

May I suggest an alternative course of action? All sides take some time to "cool off" and then revisit this matter within the confines of the game, not on mume.net. The V+ may want to take a little time to examine and perhaps discuss their actions and the ppls involved may want to soften the stance a tad. Just my thoughts. Expletives to follow no doubt.

The reasoning is simple. Mume's first rule is not to break RP by breaking char sep, cross-race info/trading fraternizing. This is so for the following reasons. And I've stated this analogy numerous times to poeople in the past two days.
MUME is viewed as existing within Tolkien's time. Therefore could you imagine,
Eowyn saying to the Nazgul (BN basis):
"You know we've been fighting a bit, let's stop I'll rest, you get up armour, I'll even fall asleep we'll work to bash this door, we'll pick this lock, we'll enter this secret place and then fight and you promise me that it will still just be me and you, K?"

When you log in to MUME you are reminded to TRY TO ROLE PLAY. The rules of mume are all based in making things as realistic as possible.

The punishment however is another story. The problem is here SB knew he was in violation of the rules, he didn't care. If he had been demoted 10 levels he probably wouldn't have cared. He knew he broke the rules he just didn't like the sentence he got (and I'm not saying I agree with the sentence but when you knowling break the rules you get what you get).
Olorion is a different case "slightly." and I'll refrain from that and keep my comments on him private and confined to Mume.

I wanted to also add that Stormblast was the first BN I ever met as mortal. He killed my first character 2x in Tharbad and I'd never fogotten the exhileration of seeing my first "darkie." I wish this entire incident had not happened.
Maybe it's for the best though since "everyone duels." If that was actually true the environment of Mume would be so much different. People always want to remove rules and punishments. Mume management may not always be right, It may never be what people consider as fair, but it tackles the very difficult task of trying to maintain a place where the majority can enjoy itself. Believe it or not, warlords and legends are not in the majority.

My Apologies to Stormblast gambled (once again with mume rules) you got caught. The penalty is a minor issue.

Last I looked, which was a few hours ago, both the lev 1 characters ARE retired
and are NOT about to delete, so there is no immediate need to get worked up
about this actually.

Oops. That's not true. Sorry.

Oh, and Harmony/Elfy cluttering up pukeside narrates about wwf wrestling, hot boys, tv shows, and other crap is rp and is tolerable? please =p

I'd have to agree with Malock and Alweon here. I have learned first hand that RP in this mud is a double-standard. There is no RP on MUME. I'll never be convinced that killing cross-race is RP, its bullshit. Elfy can spam narrates from here to kingdom come without recieving a site ban, yet gods can say that the duel is illegal in the spirit of the RP of the game? Bullshit. We fight cross-race for personal gain (equipment, wps, xp) and fun. The whole decision about Olorion and Stormblast should be based on whether the two did it for the personal gain listed about, namely Olorion warlording... or for fun.

Well, Vaire you are right in what you say and it was certainly notable that Stormblast knew that what he was doing was wrong (he's never denied it), but to say the penalty is a minor issue is completely wrong. It seems that most people's comments point towards the punishment being too severe, even Dain himself admitted to this. It's people's stubborness that stops decisions being reversed and even Stormblast is showing signs of that too now, so I can't see this being resolved, so I'll just say *comf* to Olorion and Stormblast. I never play trolls because I don't think I could take sundying away all that effort, to see this happen to a bn does put me off from playing.

agreed newbie gods don't play much of a role in mume. Fed has been around for years, i used to try to help but have given up.

Let em burn, I don't give a shit about em. Its my game and I'll do what I want to, do what I want to, you would to if it happened to you!

Does Manwe play from NSL? He sure sounds like Galadon! =p (and yes, i know he not from nsl =p)

Next time we meet, Stormie, beers are on me.

They weren't retired. Then they were (about 11pm GMT last night). And now only Olorion is retired. I don't know what is happening here - it's a mystery. And I agree with several of Granvil's points; I think this incident has definately weakened my addiction to MUME which is probably a good thing. :)

i still cant see what they did wrong, all they did was try have a fair fight,
is that cooperating with the opposite raCE? NO

I think it is bad for mume that one god can be the prosecutor the judge and the executor i feel that when one ainur is gonna punish one to level one he needs atleast 3 more ainur of some rank to accept it (dunno if it is so now) as to what i saw i have never seen anything like this in mume (been playing for 6-7 years now) it is sad to see something like this happen and also that he didnt even discuss it to other ainurs or put it on board and then judge him no he just took all those levels from him in what 10 minutes? Only what i saw was that he saw that he was guilty and thought yes he needs a punishment and that a hard one and THEN he was on the bus !!!!! he thought hmmm mabe i was hard on him poor chap. I feel that there should be rules for ainurs about fair trial. btw if you ever need any eq or help xping i will always help ya out stormy.

mume managment is dictatorship in its worst shape, all said

Without going into any depth, I consider the punishment unjust and harsh. Dain might have made a rash decision, and who knows what might come of it. I remember Dain running around at the neni orc caves when he was a meer mortal, he's done wonders for the progress of the game over many a year. I now wait with abated breath to see what Dain will do with the current situation!

Dain will do nothing since Manwe wrote about the current case on anur board and no reimbursements will be given as I understood :((((

They broke the rules, they knew it. Punishment was pretty tough and will/should be adjusted, dont know why SB feels like creating whine threads tho, certainly doesnt help his case.

damn if we all spent the time we are spending reading mume.net shit on lets say reading about rockets or doing math etc we all would be like superstars=)

Uhm Vaire, what mud do u connect to? the mume i play (mume.pvv.org 4242) does not have many rp in it. Most characters that rp are retired for ages now. Besides, (apart from the resting up bit, but that happens all day, kind of like orcs yelling wait for night...) this is more RP than u ever get in pk (Olorion trying to trick stormblast to enter a failsafe trap (with pegs blocked stormie stood no chance whatsoever). Btw, are we ever gonna get the true reason they got demoted so harshly? I am still groping in the dark (coz i KNOW u can't seriously want to nuke out the last few good players from the game on account of them being who they are, coz uhm, they make the mud as least as much as the ppl that build the mud). And Vaire, try this exercise: think of the ppl most likely to cheat in order biggest cheater first, then down... By the time u get to stormblast u should have spent a full minute atleast (if u have all players written down already)

Oh yeah... penalty IS a major issue... i never saw some1 shot for jaywalking (in civilized countries, didn't check US ;))

At 2001-03-08 05:22:07, Manwe commented:
get em burn, I don't give a shit about em. Its my game and I'll do what I want to, do what I want to, you would to if it happened to you!

I just want to know what you do if there are no more players ? It can be true that the mud belongs to you ... and some others who did work on it, but without players it's NOTHING ELSE than wasting memory!!!!!!!
Think about that and change your attitude to players. Mume is the best mud i've ever seen. Hope that SOME of you reconsider their attitudes and remove their snootiness.
Best thing to stop this bullshit is: Give Stormblast Orig. Level -10 back! (10 levels loss would be a fair deal!)

Ps: Immos did good work until that point. that has to be said once.

At 2001-03-08 05:22:07, Manwe commented:
Let em burn, I don't give a shit about em. Its my game and I'll do what I want to, do what I want to, you would to if it happened to you!

Your attitude sucks A LOT man !!!!!!!!
You claim others hard work to YOUR possession??? How deep can a man fall? 50 levels????

It might be ture that the rights of mume belongs to you, but without players it's just a waste of memory.
The players fill this mud with life. They make it what it's now!
Or you wanna keep on going and how would it feel playing MUME with 10 players online (all Immos) ?

Year ... tons of exp and items there. right.

Yes Natash, and I can also bring up again very (like 2 years rl) old post by Aschit: "Realistically speaking, someone that is constantly looking around their
immediate surroundings would suffer greater penalties over time than a sore
finger. Realistically speaking, a successful backstab would be nearly 100%
fatal. Realistically speaking, EVERYONE would have to sleep once in a while,
making stab far more easy. Realistically speaking, there would be no elves,
dwarves, hobbits, trolls, orcs, or other monsters to kill. Realistically
speaking, you couldn't run or ride three hundred miles in a single day.
Realistically speaking, you would be thrown in prison for most actions that
occur here daily. This is MUME, not REAL LIFE. Any comparisons to realism
are irrelevant. Mume is about playability, not probability."
//paragraph// Btw, Manwe never (or maybe almost never) posted smth here on mume.net, and ones who think above comment in his name who done by him - really make me laugh :P

Fuck you all.

Oops! FUCK ME TOO!!

I completely agree with u. Your point? Playability... i see ppl get at random (:P) either 1 or all levels demoted for assorted crimes (the more severe the less levels it seems). that is not playability... i dont even dare cross the oer for fear of seeing *orc* and loosing link (disabling option to fight of flee, resulting in demote according to explanation of rules i have seen a while ago.) Yes sometimes i can be sarcastic/not quite serious

I don't think I will ever figure out the Mume justice or rule enforcement. It seems like you are always trying to hit a moving target. Every time I log in for the past 3 months it seems like there is some news post regarding a new and "improved"??? interpretation of some rule that has existed previously or a new rule that has been developed to improve the game. I've only been playing about a year and a half, but it seems to me that in the course of 10 years, this shit should really be sorta figured out.

There are two types of cheating on mume. Cheating mechanics (abusing game bugs, multiplaying, and actions etc) Then there is RACE WAR the fundimental goal of players on MUME as described in it's history and in all help files is The Armies of the Free People vs the Forces of the Red Eye. Whether this is pk or exp or whatever.
If anyone here can say they did not break RULES INTERRACE then you seriously need to check your reading comprehension skills.
As for the Demotion:
I would have knocked both characters down to level 20 as heroes do not behave as they did. The fact that they were so high level and are very experienced players does not mean they should be shown leniency it means they should know BETTER. I think it was this fact and SB blatant I didnt care about the rule that earned the harshes sentence mume has.
If you get caught doing something and you say "People do it all the time cause the world is fucked" ie People duel all the time because mume provides no fair fights...you really shouldn't bitch too much when the judge shows you little sympathy.

Again, I have to agree with Stormblast in levelling another bn and not giving the gods any satisfaction whatsoever =)

Btw, i saw this used as argument: Duels are an honourable fight among foes who respect each other. The term 'honourable' does not suit orcs and trolls, therefore the only form of combat allowed between good and evil races is "fight to the death or run as hell"... Bn's should have honour (i mean they are friggin numenoreans), so trying to put up a fair fight (since the force of morgoth can't be stopped anyway) can be in character. And i guess i should reread tolkien again, since orcs apparently don't stand up for a 1 on 1 challenge (thought were some occasions, must be me).

From my point of view I think that if Stormblast and Olorion did do something wrong
and that the punishment was indeed harsh. This case will make more people from
now on think twice before they indulge in any match . The actions were completely
unroleplayish unless Olorion suggested it and Stormblast saw a advantage to
in this and then tricked Olorion. However, they wouldn't rest and regen. All that
i can say is that hopefully punishments won't be necessary; harsher punishments
would detour people from illegal actions.

Btw, i do know this is a very sneaky way to interpret rules/find backpassage. That is not my intention tho, just a way to show that rules like this either need be enforced 100%, OR DEFINED in a way that is 99% clear and failsafe. Since both darkies and whities have ability to yell/say/emote, they will use communications (or even socials... spit orc ;)), and thereby disobey the o so apparent rules by our beloved Valar. Remove say/yell/emote/socials then, coz in general (apart from sleeping bit, that needs harshest punishment available for it. I honestly cannot see the problem in trapping stormblast in there beyond that (unless mume8 consists of only being able to go berserk, pray to ford and imped actionhit).

[ARGH fix the stupid feature that posts blank comments] Well, Stormblast, I am not
sure where we are supposed to go from here. People have been arguing IN YOUR DEFENSE,
either here or on the Ainur board or even on other boards that you can't see,
that maybe you should have been demoted to level 30, or 25, or 20, but not to 1.
Now you come along and say that you would rather level a new BN than accept
that kind of demotion and have to "feel gratitude"! It is just this kind of
stubbornness that got Sauron in trouble (if you read the Silmarillion).
//PARAGRAPH// or "par" I suppose // For
your information if you think that we Valar are so "loyal" and "well-drilled"
that we don't dare voice any criticisms, you just don't know what you're talking
about. We don't write them all on mume.net, but we make our opinions known.
Furthermore if you think that Dain is so weak-willed that Maedhros and Petrel and
Vaire and who else? can force him into a corner and prevent him from doing what he wants to do,
then see the previous sentence. But as I wrote previously, Manwë wrote the rule
himself and takes it very seriously. I do not have any private information of any
kind about what has stiffened Dain's position, but I know what everyone knows:
that Manwë outranks Dâin.

One last (i hope) remark to the Valar, I, and as far as i interpret reactions of ppl, don't think this shuoldn't be punished, but i cannot honestly believe that you enforce a demote that harsh (don't know stormies playtime, my guess is 3-4 months online) a penalty in 10 mins. -- Don't wanna drag other ppl with me: my opinion: With power comes responsibility, and yes, that makes it hard/impossible to undo things you do. If you honestly believe that you can justify a punishment this harsh (don't know whats going on with stormie being retired and unretired at random, if it is true what i hear double statement :P) without looking back on it and thinking was this right in proportion to the size of the offense and the size of other crimes and their punishment, i really don't want to know u in person, just as 4 to 6 letters on a mudscreen that spout some info once in a while. oh, and thanx for building imo one of the greatest muds around. Kudos to the few V+ keeping a level head and keeping mere mortals informed btw.

BTW Natash: I bet you have RL friends and relatives who disagree with you about
politics, war, the environment, criminal justice, and a host of other things
that involve people's real lives and deaths. But if we disagree with you about
the level of virtual punishment to be meted to a virtual Numenorean for
fraternizing with a virtual elf, then you don't want to know us in person. This
shows a lack of perspective IMHO.

I understand Stormblast does not accept a 10 level demote after 10000 ppl did claim it was bullshit. Comon everybody did talk or have fun with opposite race, this is just pure IT IS CAUSE OF THE RULES U DID NO HARM BUT THE _RULES_ ARE _RULES_ so U get demoted anyway. Stormblast, be back with Stormblast again since your old char was renamed (btw I think that is totally against the _RULES_ what Dain did, changing the name of a demoted char) or quit playing and fuck MUME 100%!

Petrel: the comparison is invalid because the points of view of your RL friends and relatives on politics, war, environment and such usually do not in any way influence your RL. Your RL friends and relatives do not in any way control you or have any authority over you. Some V+ here are however quite able to take the fun out of the game for any player if they only try. (Concerning your previous comment, being weak-willed or strong-willed does nothing in such a case; there are a lot of ways of manipulating the outcome of the case without messing with the point of view of the responsible person; you can just push him into a corner until he has no other way out than do what you want, which I believe is what Vaire, Maedhros and such have done here.)

Petrel, i agree with Stormblast...So many ppl have been defending both stormblast and dain. The people blindly defending dain in every bit are going to/should feel insulted. And stormblast... Well, think about someone stealing your house and everything, then deciding to at least give u your passport back. You cannot feel any form of gratitude here, and that is what will be fished for.

Petrel, ppl may disagree with me or not. In the way they treat the differences makes me dislike or like the ppl. I do have family with which i am not on speaking terms. It is a flaw in my character, but my point stands. If you don't want to take a second thought about a 3month+ rl kick in the nuts after all this whining from both sides, you really need see a therapist. Though i finally caught up on a lot of boards, and must say this luckily is not the case for the majority of ppl.

Fiona read the god damn log...I'll personally send you mine completely uneditted. And you then say that anyone pushed anyone into anything. 1 V reported it after a mortal complained, that V informed the rest of the V+ on a the time. An Arata annouced what the penalty was for that offence and then people deferred to him. Then the Arata passed judgement. No one other than Dain suggested a punishment or any other recourse other than to put them in Morgul prior to that. So continue your little protest and continue to call names and whatever, but try to at least recall the FACTS correctly even if you wish to interpret them to your will.

Oh, I've read the goddamn log, all of its versions, thanks. And I know your version of the facts as well, you do not have to repeat it. I'm also not aware of having posted anything that calls you names, though of course I can if you want me to do it. And yes, I think you share the blame as does Maedhros.

And one other thing, Vaire. Do not patronise me.

I'm not patronising you...really what would be the point. Just don't think you can say whatever you like and everyone is going to lie down and take it. As you pointed out Mume isn't RL and you have no power over me.

where is the baboon with 4 asses? *whine*

Demote all duellers! This is Tolkien's world not some gladiator's arena of Rome!

i know i'm picking up on a dead arguement, but i'm actually just curious, wasn't there some part in the silmarilion that sauron himself had a duel with someone...i vaguely remember something about a one on one fight with sauron and someone else sounding very duel like..argh..its been too long since i read it and i was drunk when i did read it.

The two duels that come to my mind in Tolkien's works are Fingolfin vs. Morgoth (Silmarillion) and Earnur vs. the Witch King (appendix in LotR). The first was a true duel, the second was a trap that any Mume player could appreciate. :)

fraternizing with the enemy takes away from the game. It also means the gods would have to play super cop and watch every single person and make sure all they are doing is fighting, not setting themselves up to lose so there friend can get eq or what have you. The rule is pretty clear, and for an experienced player they should know much better then that. Live and learn.

Dain wigged on the character almost-deletion, and everybody's freaking out.
It might very well get fixed, then everybody can bitch about the new changes to quake.

Last Dwarf i met and whom i told "how do you dare to attact me" while he was bashed,
told me back "we get demoted if we talk" and fled....

*giggle* cele

Rofl cele

just my 2c - FUCK YOU MANAGERS. You probably have no rl and trying to be 'cool' in here, eh?

and yes, i HATE all those clueless idiots Va's (not all of them ARE really idiots, but some are clueless newbies! yes, clueless newbieS!) who dont know shit! yes, DONT knOW SHIT! about many things around. sug kuk idiots

Romka, che vse chari retired? i miss u :(