The man who has the right to decide about thousands of lives has an IQ of about 81. I don't want the war btw :). Lets just hope that Bin Laden doesn't come to Estonia so the US don't bomb my house or smth....wouldn't be able to play MUME then :(

I am
asking how is it possible that one man can have the right to
decide about thousands of lifes of people that he never seen,
that he doesnt know at all? - Bin laden most certainly didnt have that right. The US made it clear we wouldnt distinguish between those countrys HOUSING the terrorists or the terrorist themselves. Call it an ultimatum. whatever

Interesting ethar, you're comparing bin laden to george bush? There might soon be more similarities between them than one would have thought.

I've always thought that democracy is the less worst form of totally sucking idiologies around the world. War is no solution to anything, it was at medevial times but if expect anything from ti now you are way wrong. And NOONE HAS RIGHT to screw life of other people. I say get you bin Laden anyway you want but not with war, he wount see court anyways so screw him not civilians.

"Bin laden most certainly didnt have that right" - so US and Bush do have the right? Maybe you cant imagine what can happen. I am sure I dont want loose any of people that I love. Today died my cousin, because of drunk woman that was driving car killed him. I say no more deaths! War is not justice.

Hell damn sure is that anyone who thinks this will be some local war is naive:/

Mmm, well i think everybody hopes there's no war. Of course with Bush in charge America's all set for a re-run of vietnam, he got a touch of the Nixon about him. The russians couldn't win in afganistan, and i wonder how much is there to precision bomb from afar? Which country snubbed the kyoto talks? Bin laden is a coward/psycho, but a war in the east means nice fat paychecks for Bush and his cronies as oil prices rocket. Let's hope the greater world community can keep both these maniacs in check. One man is not an island as they say, neither bin laden or bush. Unless mayb when you are running scared in air force one... The brave are not those who take up arms and fire at indiscriminate enemies, the brave men/women are the emergency services personnel who lost their lives going into those buildings to save people.

"I am asking how is it possible that one man can have the right to
decide about thousands of lifes of people that he never seen,
that he doesnt know at all? " Pampalina said it, not me. The difference is that A) we will take responsibility for our actions, not hide like a fucking coward B) Its probably inevitable that some civilians will be killed if we do go after bin laden, but that is not the purpose. we are not going to hijack some afghani plane and fly it into his training camps. Please, before you critisize (sp?) the US, try coming up with a better solution. I realize its human nature just to tear people down, but before you start calling the US evil for doing what it has to do, put some weight into your arguments.

The long and short of it is that this -could- have been prevented had US had
better intelligence
agency. I am AGAINST carnivore and all that crap, but the state of Israel still
exists because of Mossad. CIA has too many scruples about whom to hire as
informants, I am guessing. Yes, some of them are murderers and terrorists,
but I'd rather have one of those on payroll then... well... lots of stuff blowing
up from here to in Afghanistan. (And, yes, given the terrain there, it is not
going to be a nice convenient little war like in Kosovo, where Americans just
dropped some bombs and hardly risked any lives).

Just remember two Cities Hirosima and Nagasaki. And STFU!

Hmm, wanna bet W is just wishing for this war, nothing could have been better for Bush (politically speaking).

I believe the 2 main goals are apprehending those responsible
while not creating more fanatical terrorists in the future.
Naturally, large arabic civilian casualties would just create
more problems for the future. I don't believe we'll see this
bloodbath you seem to predict.

A) even if someone takes responsibility, this doesn't mean he is any better if his actions are causing death, war and (very) possible massdestruciton-weapons usage B) It's ISN'T inevitable to avoid death of civilians, fucking send your supertroops, but don't bomb like "hey, theres should be some soldiers in city, blow it up!" Nobody is trying to tear down your people (americans), point is your (US) actions also affect whole world, don't look so fucking narrowminded. Yes, you are so angry there that many of you accept war, but WE DON'T in the rest of world. Maybe think about it too?

Think before you speak!

excuse me? has any1 proved that its Bin Laden that is behind this?! but that dosent matter. US will only do like they always do. nuke and ask laters. now when the us will start bombing Afghanistan how many civilians will die and how many in the world will care like they did with the wtc tradgedy?

i knew it was the afganistans, the day of the attack they had shot down one of our spy planes

Hmm...not sure this appropriate place to vent myself but here goes...US set precedent for modern war with a-bomb attacks. What they were saying was in war, everyone in country is responsible, if you pay taxes, work in factory, vote for leaders, etc...Not just government and soldiers are responsible for the war. The consequences of this idea are horrible, but here we are...every individual must decide if he is contributing to evil in any way...if you are, stop doing it or stop complaining. By the way, I believe I'm doing no evil and live 5 miles from where one of the planes hit. My conscience is clean.

I'm amazed that someone would argue that this is America's fault.
Perhaps America should apologize for Tuesday?

Not at all, but chickens must come home to roost. The US has spread a lot of hate in the world. I doubt Mume.net would have been flooded with sympathy with Viet Nam, Chile, Grenada et al when they were being bombed back to the stone age. I'm really not trying to be callous, when the deathlists are posted I'm sure I'll have friends on it...but there are few innocent people in a war like today...my tax money goes to pay for landmines which blow off the legs of children. It's a war, the tv says...wars have two sides. I support neither.

The people of afghanistan, and many countries similar to afghanistan, have for a very long time lived with USA as huge enemy. Usa have bombed these places, killing enourmous ammount of innocent people, the have refused to trade with the countries, refused to sell medecine which have caused tousands of human lives, they have supported enemies to these countries with weapons (for example Israel). The harmonic life that we are living in the west is not the reality for these people. They dont fear a third world war, they are in one. They dont have the same information in medias as we do either, all they know is that they are beeing attacked, and usa is the enemy... I cant say i really blame them for cheering when they hear that someone on this earth finally stood up, and attacked their biggest enemy...

The government of Afghanistan is apparently the voice of the people's will. If that government supports terrorism, then what are we supposed to do, let them go? Should we have let Germany continue doing what it was doing during World War II because innocent people would have died? Most soldiers in war are just as innocent as the common civilian. But war is war.

Nevermind that the coward terrorists hide among civilians to protect themselves.

The terrorist are allowed to stay there because of the large amount of cash coming into the country due to drug sales.

There is so much to ponder but I will offer the following: We must be pragmatic and resist the urge to react based purely on emotion. This is a war so we must use all weapons at our disposal, the mind is one such weapon. Let us ask what does Bin Laden et al want? Is it a change in policy towards Israel? The destruction of the west? etc. Why did he do this? By this I mean what reaction did he hope to achieve. We need to know this so we can avoid walking into another sort of trap. Lastly, once we know the motivations what are the best ways to achieve our goals? Perhaps diplomacy is a more powerful tool then we know. Finally, for all those US-bashers out there, America may have many problems but on a purely self-interest basis, a weak America is bad for Europe. Simple as that. In the end, if it comes to war, all the moralizing is irrelevant. War means total and utter obliteration of your enemy. If you don't fight that way then you are out of the game.

Daevia, if they had the means, they'd have driven tanks up the steps of the White House by now...not making judgements, but as Faustus said, war is war, you can't criticize guerrillas for being sneaky on one hand without criticizing the US for holding the threat of nuclear annihilation over us all. Terrorism is bad manners, by yesterdays standards, but that era of war is gone and done.

btw I applaud everyone who had the balls to speak honestly and sign their names.

First of all the United States hasn't done jack. Yes there will be innocent civilian casualties, and it's a shame that many of these people are so propagandized that they cheer when 10k people die. However I'm not convinced at all that this will be a bombing campaign aimed at destroying whole countries. While Bush may not be the world's smartest man many of his advisors are right up their, and they will look at ALL the options. I think many of you will be surprised at how effective US response will be, and I hope it's also relatively sterile. What I'm saying is this: SPECIAL FORCES.

1.) you don't know dick about who actually did it Pampalini and how many are involved.
2.) If the Taliban wants to house a criminal, then they should be held accountable as well.
3.) As Eothen said, we haven't done shit yet.
4.) Knee jerk reflex says "kill em all" what is terrorism without terrorists?

Grunge: We already know the names of the terrorists from flight records. Guess what, all Arabs. They already figure one of the groups involved was an Egyptian group aligned with bin Laden.

Whoever (Hannibal?) was making a good point: are we, american taxpayers,
indirectly killing civilians in, oh, say, Iraq? It is the same question
as asking if ppl of Afghanistan are responsible for their government
sheltering bin Laden. For the record, I don't
think that the fact that Hussein spends his money on weapons and leaves nothing
for medicaments is a fault of UN sanctions, but it is still a dubious point.
Just as US supplying arms to something like Kosovo Librartion Army, which
a few months later gets renamed into terrorists, and now they are trying to
get their weapons back. Ironic that. Anyhow, whether american civilians are
responsible for american arms on the Middle East, and american troops in
the Gulf is a somewhat dubious point too. Apparently someone thought that
we are, and so retaliated. Now american government is going to make a somewhat
similar choice. It would be easy for me to say: hey, I didn't vote for Bush,
if they decide positively, but it would be a really pathetic thing if they
start the war. There's just no easy way out of this one, unfortunately :(

Sheesh - now all you puppies go punch your pillow and scream in anger, please grow up and think smart, try it - might work.

Small thing: On July 20th this year, I read on cnn.com that the Taliban banned quote "playing cards, computer discs, movies, satellite TV dishes, musical instruments, cassettes and chessboards, after declaring them un-Islamic. Other items listed as banned for being "against the Sharia", or Islamic law, include fireworks, statues, fashion catalogues, greeting cards featuring pictures of people, lipsticks, nail polish and neckties." That is all.

Lochdale, a reasonable and well thought response as always, but the war already has started. It does take two to tango, and it could be that we here in the United States might just say, "sorry, go and fight yourselves because we aren't coming to your little party." but I tend to doubt it.
I believe that the correct response is going to be first, to get the international community (UN, NATO, Russia) behind us and then begin a systematic dismantling of the terrorist infrastructure, both physical and financial. This would include their training camps and their organizational headquarters. So-called innocent people will unfortunately die, and it is regrettable, but better a small number of foreign nationals die than thousands of US citizens whose only crime was trying to feed their families by working in a tall building.
I wish it were otherwise, but I can't see any negotiations being sucessful when those you are dealing with are so filled with hate that they are willing to commit suicide in an attempt on my life. Yes, we all here in America are targets now, and it's best to realize that and prepare for what is coming.

Hate begets hate. The United States is in a hating contest with unknown people who hate...who will win? I haven't a clue, and in the long run, it doesn't matter. It's the individual's responsibility not to contribute to this hate, regardless of race, creed, or national orgin. Because otherwise the exchange of bombs and rhetoric will continue unto infinity.

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The Taliban and other terrorists WILL PAY...

Lochdale mentioned something interesting above, we he brought up what Bin Laden wants. Unlike most 'legitimate' terrorists (PLO, IRA, Hamas, etc.), Laden doesn't really seem to have any positive wants, all he seems to want is the complete and utter destruction of the United States. This makes him impossible to negotiate with. /par/ As far as the death of innocent people in Afghanistan, that is in the hands of the Afghan government: if they turn over Bin Laden then we have absolutely no reason to drop so much as one bomb on them. If they refuse, well, that's their decision. /par/ And Edvard, I suggest you learn a little history, the U.S. is the only reason the Afghans aren't speaking Russian right now. We armed them, we trained them, and we supplied them all during their war with Russia. The irony that hasn't been lost on many people is that many of Bin Laden's terrorist cells contain people trained by America. /par/ Has the U.S. made bad policy calls in the Middle East? The only one I feel to be particularly bad was the embargo against Iraq that hurt only the average citizen. I also don't much support the continous violation of Iraqi airspace in support of the bizarre U.N. sanctions (which read like the Versailles treaty after WW1 in their draconian commands). Now let's stack up some of the good things we've done in that area: teaching, modernization, health care, saving the Kuwaitis (and probably Saudi Arabia as well), helping to preserve Afghan independence, moderating Israeli treatment of Palestinians (and that is a -huge- thing, though not easy to see), cultural exchange programs (4 million arabs in the U.S. currently), the list goes on. We've done a hell of a lot more good than bad, and the fact that a lot of young men have got themselves so high on their own hatred in regards to us says more about them than it does about us.

Yea mr unknown, my response wasnt very well thought out (i wrote it really quick cause i had to be somewhere!) but, its too much of a pain in the ass to keep track of 2 boards :P so im gonna stay on elvenrunes with this one. yes, i am an anal account holder.

Now, let's turn to the future: where will this all lead? From a cold-blooded standpoint, Afghanistan isn't going to be internationally risky: poor country, all its neighbors hate it, government so psychotically extreme they make the Iranian hardliners look like Mr. Rogers, and no oil. So, since Pakistan is almost certain to let us use their airspace, this area politically isn't risky. But...what about Iraq and (especially) Iran? Anyone think they'll stop funding terrorism? They currently both pour money into any group attacking Israel (notice how the Palestinian have no decent clothing, housing or food, but each has an endless supply of automatic weapons and ammo). Are we going to invade and conquer -both-? And would the world let us if we wanted to do so? You're talking about around 30% of the world's available oil reserves there, you start screwing with that and a lot of people are going to perk up and discover they aren't so anti-terrorist after all. What will we do if they -say- they'll stop, but then don't? How will we prove it? /par/ The Bin Laden part is easy (politically speaking), but this anti-terrorism crusade is going to run into some really sticky political webs really quick once it starts looking for it's next target.

Well, there will always be unknowns on mume.net, even when account system gets
activated. But as always, you'd be able to just ignore them :P. Don't you know
that MUME's most renowned terrorits post on mume.net? And oil, good point,
someone mentioned oil. Important that.

Unbelievable some of the ignorant comments here.
The motives of most of the extremist muslims have nothing to do
with US killing innocents. Its quite obvious they kill enough of
they're own innocent people. Its because they want the destruction
of Western Civilization. I saw another unbelievble comment that most
of the world doesn't support a war, and thats entirely false.
Most of civilization can see that barbarians in possession of
weapons of mass destructions with a pure minded zealotism purpose
cant be tolerated. THINK before *YOU* speak, and maybe see that
the US is fighting for all of your freedoms. Are you so blinded
with propoganda not to be able to see the world trade center attack
was a pivitol historical event showing NO country was safe.
When I see people arguing here, giving 'facts' they can't even
support or just assume is true, it is truly sickening. Some of
your own died in those attacks. Stand up for your beliefs and
fight for freedom, or sit there doing nothing but complaining while
others fight your battles for you!

Ethar, when you say america will not hide, and will take responsibility for what they do, when they do it, how do you mean? How will this responsibility taking help the families of the innocent afghanistanians that is killed? I don't see how the US is any better than bin laden if you also kill innocents to reach your goals (something that has been done on plenty of places already around the world).

Btw, as far as I know, noone has proved bin laden had anything to do with it yet? Terrorists were arabs, bin laden has done terrorist acts in the past, so the guilty this time, is therefore bin laden? With thinking like that, maybe the real brains behind it walks free, to do it again.

Bin Laden is the "prime suspect," but whether or not he is responsible for the current atrocity he needs to be flushed out and squashed like a bug. If he's not the asshole behind the attack on America, we'll nail that son-of-a-bitch in due course. Terroristics count on America's compassion and humanity by hiding behind innocent people. That's not going to work anymore. They've shown us that it leads to more harm than good. Only the U.S. would be as concerned as we will be about keeping innocent casualities down. Sorry if some innocent people are hurt. That's a consequence of war. We're at war. Period. Get out of the way or get hurt. Period.

1. Usama bin Laden is from South Arabia, not Afghanistan.
2. There is still no proofs as to wether or not bin Laden is guilty for this attack.
3. Afghanistan does not support bin Laden, the Taliban's do.
4. If bin Laden is found guilty, the Taliban's have agreed to give bin Laden out.
5. I'm to distracted by this movie my gf is watching on the vcr, so I'll get back to you with more information.

They description I heard of how Bin Laden works is interesting. Apparently what he does is train 'cells' of small groups of people, then those cells 'graduate' and move on to doing whatever they can think of. If they need help with what they come up with, then Laden helps them out, but basically he's more of a terrorist CEO than a general. He's an organizer. An interesting person, has a worth of over 300 million dollars, yet sleeps with his rifle in dugouts and holes in the ground, smart, charismatic, and totally dedicated to destroying the United States. I think a lot of us (Americans) underestimated him and wrote him off as 'just another crazy arab'. Bad move on our part. /par/ Rogon, you talk as though America is going to go in and napalm every living creature in Afghanistan. That's ridiculous. Our armed forces strike more precisely and with less civilian casualties than any other army in the world today. We bend over backwards to -not- destroy non-military targets, to -not- kill innocent bystanders. You think those cruise missles are cheaper or more effective than carpet bombing with B-52s? They aren't, we use them for their precision to limit civilian death and destruction. And as I said before, it's the government of Afghanistan that will choose how this goes down, they cooperate and they won't get so much as a skinned knee. But playtime is over, if they want to keep thier terrorist friends, they'll have to pay the price.

As far as Bin Laden being responsible, he has many times made statements against the United States calling for just this kind of action. "We do not differentiate between those dressed in military uniforms and civilians; they are all targets in this fatwa." At this point, it is not up to us to prove it was him, it's up to him to prove it was not. I'm a reasonable guy and will listen to his explanation.

Ilmarin, noone ever proves anything to anyone who doesn't want to be convinced (see OJ Simpson trial). The Taleban rule Afghanistan except for a small contested area (the opposition leader of which was murdered just the other day by some terrorist suicide bombers, they are what's left of the ones that took control of Afghanistan after Russia pulled out), and they support Bin Laden. He's paid them a lot of money for that support, and if you think they'll ever be convinced of his guilt of anything then you'll be in for a long wait. He's been murdering people for over a decade and it hasn't bothered them yet.

South Arabia? Err. :) And I hate to break it to you but the Taliban currently controls most of Afghanistan.

Then Bush says that he feels anger and not sorrow/grief... :-( Some kills innocent ppl, why on earth should the innocent ppl who suffered have the right/justice to kill innocents back? I hope they wait some with retribution till they have calmed down so they can pinpoint the guilty. Not some "flashy" kill em all operation.

40 billions $ or so was spared to Bush 4 anti-terrorist program. Well... such a hillarious money... he asked 4 20 billions... shiver, congress in panic seems.

Yes Daevia, Usama bin Laden is born as one of 50 (or 47..) sons of a VERY wealthy construction engineer in SaudiArabia. This has really nothing to do with this thread, but Vorlin, USA has been murdering poeple for over a centuary and it hasn't bothered them yet. *shrug*

Well..i am really sad of what happens in USA, i have a strong feeling this is a really huge conspiracy made not the afganistinian,but the ones Inside the USA, how can a guy like that can fool an well-established,well-advance netwrok of intelligence in USA? NOnsense!A very neatly superbly organized plot have been worked here. I know you guys are mad,but dont accuse unless you got a strong proves againts anything.Osama might be only a space-goat!You must've been wondering for what? Nothing else is to destroy Middle-east once and for all, for the palestinian never gain their freedom, and forever in sufferings.FOr all of the Arabics under your influence and for Israel to be the ruler of middle-east!

Jalin wrote: 'maybe see that the US is fighting for all of your freedoms'.
// Oh well... :(, that words hurt me. Im sure most of the USA citizens know how many damage did your country others like Chile, only for political and money superiority.
Terrosist attacks are horrible thing, but worst is those 'legal' slains maid but 'freedom countrys' (and im not talking only about USA).
Btw, Vorlin said: 'the U.S. is the only reason the Afghans aren't speaking Russian right now'. // Someone really thinks that a taliban goverment is better than a communist govern? (ask the women in afganistan).

Vorlin wrote "Our armed forces strike more precisely and with less civilian casualties than any other army in the world today.", i find that statement rather odd, what other armies is that you're talking about? Isn't the american army the only army that strikes at anything at all, except for various rabble in some african countries? Or is that what you're comparing with?

Interesting points. First, war is not to utterly destroy your opponent, it is a
way of using force to achieve certain goals. When you have achieved them you try
to end the war as soon as possible. Second, USA is hated in many parts of the
world, americans should ask themselves why. Those who hate the US are human
beings, they have a reason for the hate. This reason is the way the US and its
allies (e.g Israel) behaves in the world. Jalin thinks everyone outside of USA
is blinded by propaganda, IMO USA have the most effective propaganda ever, more
so than both the Nazis and the Commies. It may be hard for someone to live in
it to recognize that fact. Nevertheless I think a world without USA would be far
worse than one with it, at least for us in the western world (I'm Swedish) so
therefore I support a retaliation. A line has been crossed, if that does not
bring consequences that line will be crossed again and again so lets make the
strike back a harsh one. Why not take this opportunity and deal with the
Talibans who is a crude leadership with no regard for human lives. I say USA
join forces with Russia and invade the whole country.

Americans are dumb and arrogant, hope they suffer first if they start WW3.

I'm not completely sure, but hasn't the Taliban have a long hatred of women? I know they had some laws pertaining to that......

Every bad thing that America have done to 3rd world nation will attacked them back, see how the results, many innocent people dies. Grow up you AMERICA!!

Rogon, in Africa, the Middle East, Chechnya, Afghanistan, and all over the world, when anyone else gets involved in military operations they kill and shell everything in their path. Every place the army moves they leave behind pile of rubble filled with dead civilians. Everything is a target. When we go in we do our best to hit precisely, and for you to carry on as if we do the opposite isn't a viable position. /par/ Ilmarin, are you Russian? Because if you live in Europe and aren't Russian, then you owe your freedom the the United States. We are the -only- reason Russia didn't take control of every single country in Europe. And if you have forgotten that (or never learned it), then I suggest you crack open a history book. We saved France in World War 1, we saved Europe in World War 2, and we saved Europe and a good part of the entire planet from Russian Communism in the Cold War. And if you and the rest of Europe aren't grateful for that (and for the billions we gave after the wars for rebuilding) then you are some sorry sons of bitches. 'Murdering people for a century' to save your asses. /par/ 'Hate to Jalin', the Taleban wasn't the group that controlled Afghanistan after the Russians pulled out. At that time Afghanistan was run by a coalition, one that soon lost itself in infighting and became weak enough for the Taleban to seize control. Is the Taleban worse than Russia for the Afghans themselves? I don't think so. They are imposing an extremist set of beliefs, but they are muslim beliefs the Afghan people as a whole recognize. Ask the Chechnyans and other former Soviet satellites as to what the Russian 'beliefs' are. /par/ Khargaz has it right, the world without the United States (who you all seem to love to criticize so much) wouldn't be worth much. But who knows, maybe we'll lose this war and be destroyed. Then Europe can look for someone else to bail it out of trouble, because for the entire 20th century that's been our job.

As I mentioned earlier, whatever misgivings one my have about America the simple fact is that (as long as one is being pragmatic) a weakened America is bad for Europe. Indeed, America has had its moments of infamy (the coup in Chile in the 50's is one as Rogon pointed out), but they have been called to task regarding those acts. How? Via a free press and the Church Doctrine (a Senator not an organized religion) prohibiting the CIA and other agencies from asssasinating foreign leaders or directly involving themselves with armed resistance/response. No the US is not perfect but it is a damn sight more accountable then fundamentalist terrorists. Lastly, Bin Laden is an arab, I believe the Afghanis' are assyraian (sp). It is my beliefe that, even if they wanted to, the Taliban could not turn Bin Laden over has he has a significant "army" of his own. This could well turn into a serious conflaguration but the fact remains, unless we discover the true motivations of these actors then we are ALL in the cross hairs.

What a load of shit you boys are. You are the sons of Europe, no question about it. You're the first in line begging for U.S. help when there's a problem in your own neighborhood and as often as not you forget who helped before you even get the care package opened. Let me tell you something, America is tired of you and your sniping. We owe you nothing. Bin Laden will pay and the U.S. will win or lose a war against terrorism at great expense and at great sacrifice. And whether you like it or not, the fate of Europe and the rest of the world hangs in the balance. Pick a side boys and hang on for dear life and the lives of your children and grandchildren and generations to come. If you want to sacrifice them to international terrorism, that's your business.

Eh, you saved europe in WW2? And you tell us to open OUR history books? Do you have nothing but american propaganda in your schools over there? If ANY country was the one to save europe, it was russia, who caused the germans about 75-85% of their losses. the USA fought very hard to NOT get involved in the war, you even had a president who went to election on the promise to keep the US outside the war, something that failed mainly because the germans was very persistant about sinking any boats in the atlantic, including several american ones with thousands of civilian casualties, and the US was dragged into the war. (before that they supported britain with war materials, weapons and such.) The US also tried to not get involved in japan's conquerings of asia, that also failed when the US was dragged into the war - you know how i expect.

US didn't save jack in Europe, endless mass of russian soldiers and fucknut-thinking of Hitler's did. US army has not any skilled victory to show.

Rogon, if Russia attacked Sweden today who would help you? If all of your stocks and income crashed, who would send financial aid? If there was this bombing in your own country who would send workers, food, military support, people to investigate it? U.S.A. I find it hard to think that you would just ditch the country that has helped you the most in past years because we don't like our citizens being killed. If it hadn't been for us Hitler would have taken over all of Europe and created his "super race" all arabs, jews, orientals would be dead, gone, forever lost but we helped you. Don't give us this bullshit that we shouldn't protect our own citizens because if you where in trouble you would expect us to protect your sorry ass also. (i know Rogon doesn't speak for your whole nation)

Rogon your view of history is somewhat skewed. I believe that America entered the second world war out of self-interest more then any particualt bond with the English over the Germans. The war with Japan was an entirely different war that happened to be fought at the same time. (Anyone show me proof that Japan and Germany where really "allied" other than on paper?). And while your statics on the infliction of losses vis a via the eastern front are somewhat accurate, one must remeber that but for the overwhelming and almost inexhaustible supply of armenants and raw materials from the US to Russia the Russians would have fallen or had no were near the success that they eventually had. Witnesss the Russian industrial production rates from '39 through 44' that show a significant decline is domestic production which is not only made up, but exceeded by US contributions and supplies. It made a huge difference and like them or not, but fot the US involvement we may very well have had a stalemate on the Eastern front and a very different Europe.

The entire infrastructure that allowed Russians to move troops to the front was supplied by America, without that they couldn't have advanced in any significant way (or even fed their troops). Without us Africa would have been lost, and Germany's oil problem solved. Without us England would have been lost to the U-boat campaign. Without us there would have been no reinvasion of Europe to free it from the Germans. It was the bombing campaign lead by us that shattered the German infrastructure thus greatly hampering their ability to reinforce and resupply their troops. And without all these things the Germans would have been completely free to destroy the Russians at their leisure. /par/ And I have to love your hypocrisy. You complain about when we go to war, now you complain that we tried hard to stay out of war. There's a damn good reason why we tried to stay isolationist early in the 20th century, anyone who reads the anti-american bullshit that has been posted here should understand why. We didn't want to get involved in your problems, YOU CAME TO US. Read that again before you post any more anti-american crap, Rogon. YOU CAME TO US. And the only reason you are posting free on the internet today is because we answered that call. If that chaps your ass, that's because don't have the maturity to feel the emotion called 'gratitude'.

In case you want specific numbers vorlin, WW2 had been going on for two years, france was occupied, the germans was beginning to have serious problems in russia, when, dec7 1941 japan bombs pearl harbour, and dec11 1941 germany declares war on USA. It was hardly, in any way, USA who rushed to the aid of europe (they could have done that two years earlier if it was their intent). Rather, they stayed out of it for as long as possible, and only entered the war when germany and japan declared war on them. Of course they helped in winning the war, but not for the reasons you seem to learn in school. (let me guess, "we heard there was trouble in europe, and well, we figured someone had to save'em")

Source: Liddel Harte: The European War (Several volumes written by a former Brithish General and still one of the best books ever written on the subject. It makes all of Ambrose's books all the lesser).

What do they teach in Sweden Rogon? We hid and begged the Germans not to hurt us because we where "neutral"? The American History that is thought in the schools is rather sanatized but then what countries history is not at that level? Back in Ireland I was learning what a great chap De Velera was rather then the fact that he was a mysoginistic, anti-semetic half-wit. You can't get too deep with 12 year olds. Without American intervention (for whatever reasons and btw why shouldn't they be self-serving?) they where THE pivotal actor in the war (with all due respects to the achievements of the Red Army).

and vorlin, i didnt come to anyone :) i was born 30 years after the war ended, and my country was never even in it. I'm just trying to put some facts straight with you fanatically nationalistic americans who twist everything into the view that what you did always was the right thing, always the most important, always the deciding factor. You're the heroes, the good guys, etc etc, yadda yadda.

Why do americans have this urging irrresistable need to always say "we saved you in WW2" every chance they get? It's a world war, more or less every country in europe and asia was in it, usa australia, some african nations, etc etc. Yet, for americans, all it ever comes down to is that you did the saving of the world.

Some figures on losses in WW2.
Germany, eastern front: 3.2M... Germany, western front+italy+africa: 400k... USA, europe/africa: 300k... Russia: 7-10M... England: 400k... various other countries had losses too, france finland romania italy etc etc, but those numbers should give quite a clear idea of where the big part of the war took place. And you can probably find slightly(!!) different figures elsewhere, since its all estimates, etc etc, standard disclaimers.

Those losses are military, by the way, civilians not included.

I find it troublesome that you go about bragging and trying to show who is the
world-saver. I always thought of USA as an ally to Europe, and a very useful and
trustworthy one at that. I might be foolish but I thought somehow that the US
view was the same and they thought of Europe as allies. We stand and we fall
together. Is it really as bad as this that you think of us over here as weak
little children that you have to save in the name of humanity. I always thought
the WW2 was won by the joined forces and combined efforts of some European
countries, most notably the UK, and the US. Even before US was actually IN the
war they gave massive aid to Britain, which would prolly have perished without it. I think most of us here appreciate these facts and are grateful for it.
However, the war was hardly won by the US alone, which one might think after reading some of the comments above, that the US was more hampered than aided by
those tiny efforts the weak europeans could show. I think also one should be
careful handing out credit to Russia, since in the original plan they were
secretly allied with Germany in a campaign of splitting Europe among themselves.
It was only after Hitler decided to turn eastward that Russia switched side. The Germans had also made a deal with Japan to aid the war, the original plan was that Japan should attack Russia from behind, thereby pressure Russia from two sides. The Japanese however decided to first get rid of their Pacific rival USA by dealing a crucial blow to their fleet lying in Pearl Harbour and so on...
My point is that there are a number of crucial points in the history of WW2 where another course of action would have altered the outcome dramatically.
As well as arguing that USA saved Europe by entering the war in 41, which is
most likely true one can argue that if they had joined right away in 39 or at
the latest 1940 the war would have ended much quicker and thousands of both European and American lives would have been saved.
Returning to the present I think americans need not to worry. We in Europe will
give you support in fighting terrorism as all our governments have expressed. We after all have lived with this problem much longer than the US, since the 70's actually. And its not until now that USA has begun to take it seriously when they see that there is no guarantee to keep out of it, as they saw in WW2.
Enough.

ok Vorlin. reality check now. you state that everyone OUTSIDE usa is so full of propaganda that they cant se clear. ok what does the average american know about communism? the answear is "its wrong and evil". and also. who stopped Germany in ww2? pls tell me! iam so eager to know.

Without American's in WW2 Africa have been lost, Vorlin? Even if that (fucknut) Hitler chappie hadn't taken Rommel out of the picture the British would still have won. Yes Vorlin, Montgomery was BRITISH. And btw it was something known as RADAR which saved us from an invasion. You might choose to look at you own heritage Vorlin b4 you start attacking Rogon and read some Steinbeck, the Moon is Down. Of course, your countrymen slated the book when it was published. Anyway, whether it is wrong or right to take action in this way, Bush be doing it for political and monetary gain. I hope when u get drafted Vorlin, u think oil is worth fighting for.

and if you read some more history about the ww2 you fill find out that Hitler used the air to fight. he bombed the countries he was invading. and how the hell could he ever win against Russia. you Russia is HUGE! and they dont have everything on the same place. its spread all over Russia. and the Germans dident have bomb planes that could carry bombs to ther other side of Russia so all the Russians had to do was move every factory to the east side of Russia and let hitler bomb wasteland, while the Russian army just walked right into Germany and kicked hitlers ass.

Please Fredde, what is so great about communism? All I have heard from you is a bunch of pro communist bullshit, but I have yet to hear you say what is so great about it? Can you please explain to my ignorant American ass why so many people have been miserable under communism if its so great? Could you tell me why people were celebrating when it finally ended in Russia? Please, enlighten me.

shall we start with that every man and woman is worth the same? free medical threathment?

The self-serving ignorance displayed here isn't worth further comment. Which, considering this is mume.net, shouldn't be all that surprising to me. If Europeans want to pretend that they don't owe their freedom to us, fine. We've got Fredde who thinks you can 'move' a country from one side to another, Stibb who thinks America is fighting for oil in a country that has no oil reserves (and if you want to promote Montgomery as militarily significant, be my guest, noone who had a clue at that time felt he was anything other than an incompetent), and Rogon who thinks the people who die the most in a war did the most (I list that one amid his 15 or so other inaccuracies and inconsistencies, none of which he's replied to because he can't). Leaving aside the gross inaccuracies and distortions of the last few replies, the only one worth replying to is what Khargaz wrote: yes, we view the Europeans as allies and partners. And we appreciate your support in this crisis. But you can't expect me to eat the sort of mindless bullshit that's been spewed on this forum without getting heated in response. Call it a mistake on my part to expect to at least not be verbally attacked by the people living in the countries we've protected for so many decades. They say gratitude is short-lived, I believe them now.

yeah and we have this Vorlin who think america rules! who thinks that indeed it was USA who stoped hitlers nazi germany. btw what have you been protecting us from? oh i forgot. you americans think that the russians are evil and will start a war one day and try to take over whole europe. or maybe melocivic or that ever he is named will break out from prison and take over europe.

just to get the ppl claiming USA saved the world in ww2. check out this link "http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/waryears/war_index_summary.shtml"

When America entered WW2, Europe was all but lost to Adolph Hitler. We didn't have to come at all. Many Americans opposed entering into Europe's little unpleasantness because of all the reasons you geek-necked wusses cite now for turning the other cheek to terrorism. That was understandable, of course, because we didn't really get much appreciation for our sacrifices in WWI (remember that one?) Frankly, old bean, our business at the time was in the Pacific. That matter could have been handled in 6 months if we hadn't divided our attention to fight a war in Europe. Re-write history to your delight, ya little commies bastards, Europe was happy to see us show up. Looking back, probably a mistake on our part. Just say "thank you" and shut up already Fredde. You're a waste of natural resources and a disgrace to whatever hell-hole of a country spawned your fetid brain. Next time ya need a hand-out, call Russia (or send a carrier pigeon--they're more reliable than the phone system over there).

I'd throw in my 2 cents, but I'd never find it again in the huge piles of shit that have been thrown here.

Communism is a quaint ideology premised upon a fallacious assumption of human nature. The philosophy does not translate into practical living. All men and women equal -- a nice selling point, but absolute bull. How many women served as premiere of the soviet union? There was, in the Soviet Union, a rigid hierarchy characterized by privilege and power. Free medical care? Sure, why not. Was it worth having? No. Somebody always has to pay the bill. That's the incentive to do more and be better at it. BTW, contrary to what you folk outside U.S. think, anybody that needs medical care in the U.S. can get it. Emergency rooms don't throw people out on the street if they don't have an ability to pay (and if they do, they can lose important Federal subsidies, grants and benefits). Is it altogether a perfect system? No, but given the choice anybody with two brain cells to rub together (in other words, everbody except Rogon and Fredde and your average garden toad) would rather receive medical treatment in the U.S. than in any country with socialized medicine.

In other words, who gives a RAT'S ASS about World War II at the moment? There are hundreds of things, by many nations, that could have changed the outcome of the war. Yes, my country does have a huge problem with being self-centered, and at times, self-serving. But my country has also been host to some of the most compassionate and caring acts this world has known (as well as some of the most barbarous). The fact is, the more 'civilized' man becomes, the more I wonder why the hell prehistoric man first climbed down out of his tree. The United States is committed (at least to the appearance) of non-hostility unless it or its allies or interests are threatened. If the Americans weren't so squeamish about 'unjustified' bloodshed, Bin-laden would have been a smoking crater a number of years ago. Because our population does not condone unnecessary killings, five thousand or more of my fellow Americans will never see their families again. Only because it wouldn't have been right to target someone for elimination (even someone already admittedly responsible for harm done to our nation). That is the difference between America and terrorists: even knowing that there is a risk of great loss, we place great trust in human nature that all people strive for peace. We should have seen Pearl Harbour coming (some did), we should have seen the devastation in the World Wars coming (many did), we should have seen the problems with Korea, Vietnam, and other engagements (many did). We also should have seen the terrorist attacks this week coming (many did). Unfortunately, our country often suffers great loss simply because of our faith in mankind (an unearned faith). Perhaps that is because our citizenry has in its latter years enjoyed more freedoms and rights than any other citizenry I have ever heard of. We simply cannot understand the feelings of those raised without those freedoms we take for granted far too often. Our ignorance (what I prefer to think of as innocence) has brought us pain in the past, it brings us pain in the present, and doubtlessly, it will bring us pain in time to come. Such is the price of freedom, but I gladly will suffer pain to guarantee the opportunities I was given as my birthright as an American. As Thomas Jefferson once stated: "Freedom is the right to choose, the right to create for oneself the alternatives of choice. Without the possibility of choice, and the exercise of choise, a man is not a man but a member, an instrument, a thing."

Just wanted to add a few points. That was a very eloquent comment Khargaz, I really can't better it. Rogon: I would like a response to my retort to your earlier comments. Sibb: Montgomery was a facist with little or no military acumen, to compre him to Rommell is not right. Fredde: You make no sense you crazy little man...but I bet you'd be great to have a few beers with! Finally, at the end of the day, Europe and the US have more in common and closer interests than any of us do with radical Islam.

sure lochdale i really dont make sense at am time! and you are right! i rule to drink beer with! nod self. but really. why start a war? we all know they will strike back. and if we are so friggin unlucky, a missile will nuke the mume server!!!!

'..a missile will nuke the mume server!!!!' Now THAT would be terrorism worthy of global war! Myself, I would love to see every person involved with the hijackings sent to prison for life. But not American prison where they get free cable and long distance calls. Maybe some country could muddle a system just for them, where their walls are video screens showing pictures of ALL of their victims, with the words "Thou shalt not kill" intoned between each photo, for the rest of their natural lives (which I pray would be very long indeed).

Those dumb mother fuckers killed tons of innocent americans...
Then need to pay and the world needs to know not to fuck around
with the US.

Bottom line is Bin Laden attacked THE WORLD TRADE CENTER.
Obviously he doesn't care who he kills.
He started basically a war with the whole world.
But I still Think the damn afgan's citizens should be spared :/

I am sure all american's were worried about everybody in the building not just the americans :/

What was that thing about the human race being happy only there is only
one man left on the face of the Earth? Or maybe two men, Lochdale, Fredde,
and a sixpack of Tuborg Gold.

Seriously though. There was a statistic according to which, most Americans
believe US won WWII. Too many points to make, too little time, but here is
one: it seems like ppl are not making a distinction between a reason for something
and an excuse. A reason WWI started was very much geopolitical, its excuse was
an assassination of one somewhat insignificant guy.
A reason for the US joining the european front during WWII
was so that Russia would not end up influencing all of Europe after all is
said in done. By the point they joined in, it was sufficiently clear that
Hitler is not doing so well. But Russia-dominated Europe would be a bad
thing for the US. Their excuse was to help europeans, save lives,
and do all those other wonderful things (not meaning this as sarcasm, but
these are things that do nothing for the US itself). I don't believe
that just helping
Europeans would have been a sufficient reason for US to intervene.
A lot of americans have hard time believing motivation of their own
government could be so jaded, but sadly, most of political things are.
It is not about Saving the World, and Banishing Evil (our president
really likes that word), as much as it is about making -US- population safer,
helping -US- interests, making sure -US- business stays afloat. By extension,
lots of european and US interest coincide, so that's really helpful.
Sadly, Middle Easterms interests involve having weak and rattled US.
There methods are ugly, they have plenty of excuses,
but in the long run, it is the results that matter :(.

Aredhel's only problem is that he has no grasp of history, geopolitics, international relations or current world events. It's too bad there are people like Aredhel who have a hard time that everything the U.S. does is motived by some jaded purpose. Of course there a geopolitical consideration. How do you want decisions made? Maybe a coin flip would be fair. What a moron. Lots of factor sway the balance. Who are we supposed to support Aredhel, the people who don't like us? Use a brain cell. Borrow one if you have to. If you think I'm wrong, go test your theories at the local biker bar. They'll explain the flaws in your logic.

Lochdale: a response to what? your claim that the US helped win the war? Of course they did. Would the war have been lost without the US? Maybe it would have. It would have been lost for sure without russia and without england, those countries might have won without the US, maybe not, we'll never know. But the popular american view that you did all the work to save the world, while the other countries were helpless without you, is total bullshit. You were one of many countries that helped, and everyone that helped made a difference.

Rogon, you are delusional. The U.S. won the world war I and world war II and rebuilt your countries (even the losers) after both wars. And that's ancient history. Now we are going to wipe out terrorism. Don't get in the way.

I need directions to the biker bar as you can't explain the flaws in my logic
to me. I don't have hard time with the fact that US is pragmatic in its decisions,
but many americans sure seem to. They think they are out to save the world.

Lochdale, another set of good points, but I must put in my perspective on your WW2 analysis. Many Americans lost their lives during this particular struggle, and I do believe that it can be said that it was only for America's interests. What would have been in the better interests of America at the time would have been to make immediate peace with the Japanese and then sell arms to the British and Russians. That we did not do this shows that we held some more idealistic views of how this world conflict ought to outcome. Why any1 brings up these old struggles is somewhat beyond my comprehension, as we now have an entirely new, and completely different battle to engage. Please, let us all drop these really rediculous references to a war that happened over half a century ago. Instead, let us all talk of how we can join in the struggle against world terrorism, which targets not only myself, but each and every one of you. I can understand how many nations would have cause to incite hatred toward my home, the United States, but I do not believe that any civilized person can condone that hatred, or the actions which have been the outcome of the warped, suicidal and ultimately evil thought process.

If WW3 ever happens, i'll take AK and shoot Lochdale :) I WANT YOUR BLOOD!

Some pretty famous names got together with Ted Koppel earlier this evening and talked about the situation at length (Koppel is worth watching because he's one of the few news people out there who can think coherently). The view most commonly expressed is that going after Bin Laden will (assuming the Taliban don't cooperate) probably involve Special Forces-type units dropping on suspected locations. Now, that was just brainstorming and not a policy, but considering the way the governement here is prepping everyone for military casuatlies, I think it might be the likely event. This would limit civilian casualties to about zero, as Bin Ladin from what I've seen tends to keep his camps in the middle of nowhere. Of course, if he hides in an urban area, or if the Afghans harass our forces during this, the arena of combat could widen considerably... /par/ Iraq was also mentioned strongly, sort of a '2nd on our list' sort of thing. But the name I didn't hear was Iran, and I thought that was interesting as they've funneled incredible amounts into terrorism over the years. There is a fairly popular movement in Iran currently to replace the hardline government with a more moderate system, it's possible that we don't want to screw that up by pushing them into a corner. /par/ One thing is for sure, this is going to cost an absolutely incredible amount of money. The rebuilding of New York (saw some aerial shots today, the TV ground pics don't do the destruction justice), the cost to airlines to alter their planes and security handling, the cost for more internal security, the cost to upgrade the CIA, the cost for the military strikes, the list goes on and on, and everything on it involves billions of dollars. I'd say the tax cut was the last we'll see for awhile. :)

Wow! I'm quite surprised at how many of you are ripping on America as you are. In one single day, 5,000+ of your fellow human beings were instantly slain by nutbag religious fanatics. Wake up - the leadership of almost every civilized nation on the earth [hell even China supports American in seeking to end this bullshit] agrees that this crap must stop. America isn't going to start carpet-bombing the dirt-poor folks in Afghanastan ... more likely the Taliban will be routed out and removed from power, American special forces will hunt down and eliminate bin Laden, and maybe along the way the PEOPLE of Afghanastan can elect someone of their choosing to lead them in rebuilding their already decimated nation. I'm thinking if given the chance to make a free choice of whom will lead them in the future, you have to believe half the nation [ie Women] certainly don't want these Taliban fanatics. Do I think America is perfect? Hell no. We have made PLENTY of foolish mistakes during our brief existance. But USUALLY, the intentions of the American people and its ELECTED government are righteous. Did bin Laden pick the completely WRONG time to attack America and piss of its people, civil and military leaders? Fuck yes. Bush's administration was looking for its 'next cause' after the 'tax cut'. Military folks are just that, military, and of course prefer to be fighting some foe or threat rather than just hang around waiting for something to happen. Going after these terrorists with lethal force works - it's about all they understand. When we finally got fed up with Kadafi's [spl?] shit we bommed the piss out of him and his 'royal family' and not a peep was heard thereafter. And this crap about Russia saving Europe during WW2 is a joke. By working closely TOGETHER, all the nations of Europe, along with America and Russia defeated the evil leaders of the time, and will do so again. And by the way, what country completely rebuilt its two former foes immediately after WW2 and what country pretty much kept all the territory it had obtained? Well, that's enough for now - something to chew on. Later.

Yes so what? THERE DIE 1001023029301293201 PEOPLE EVERY DAY TO HUNGER DRUGS ETC ETC AND NOONE CARES WHO CARES ABOUT 5000 PPL WHO DIED A PAINLESS INSTADEATH GODDAMN WHINER FUCKAMERICANS!!!! You kno what? AMERICA IS CUTTING TREES IN ASIA AND TONS OF VILLAGERS THERE GET KILLER GROUPS ON THEM IF THYE PROTEST, THEY DIE A AWFUL WAY WHILE THE TREES ARE STAPLED UP 40 METRES, LIKE 100 A DAY DIE WHO CARES? NONONONONO AMERICA IS HIT CRY WORLD CRY!!! *spit spit spit puke puke*

If that is really you Deva .... you are a complete asshole.

Just a few points: World War II may or may not have been won without the U.S. joining the war (it's highly debatable), but it would not have been won without America's resources in some form. Russia had resources, but lacked the infrastructure to supply them to the allies. England had the infrastructure, but lacked the resources. Most of the rest of Europe was under control of the Nazis, or else playing the 'neutral' card to stay clear of the war. /par/ Second, if the U.S. is truly an 'imperialistic' nation, as some of you claim, we would have taken control of Japan and parts of Germany rather than rebuilding them and setting them back on their feet. America does, in fact, tend to look after its own interests primarily (along with every other country in the world). Call us 'materialistic'; fine, every American would agree with you. But if we are 'imperialistic', where is our empire?

Well what can you expect: America and Russia were enemies during the Cold War. That war which you cant really call a war, Cold war - was a military technologic race. Only virtual threats, except the Carribian crisis no real outbreaks have happened. // PAR // Little kids in both countries were raised with a huge motherfucking propaganda. No matter that Russian propaganda was communist and American was democratic (eh?). They both __c o m p le t e l y __ consist of pure shit. Face it: when you are on one side of the barricade, people on the other side are assholes. // PAR // I wont argue with Vorlin here, many people have did it, but his last comments show that there is no point. I will tell you a story here. Quite INTERESTING it is. I live in Latvia, Riga. It ain't any powerful country, basically we have no military - our military is a joke. When i was young i lived in USSR. BUT when we got independence i was actually growing up and my mind was forming at that time. During that long process of gaining independance, no information was censored. SO WE ACTUALLY GOT INFO ON STUFF HAPPENING IN THE WORLD FROM _MANY_ SOURCES. Yes i know realize that many things in UUSR culture were stupid, but America is no better. // PAR // Now here i will just give you info on smthing that happened to me. I won a scholarship and was studying in USA, New York state, Kinderhook (near Albany) for 1 year in a simple American high school. Now, here i will get poured with tons of shit, by peepl like Vorlin, BUT THOSE KIDS ARE FUCKED UP _COMPLETELY_. Every day i'd hear and interesting "idead" from them. Once some 15-16 year old American kid offered with a smile (I am quoting this fuck, nothing imaginary) "Hey, i think America should declare a war on Russia and conquer it, while it is weak! There are plenty of resources there that we could use" H O W S I C K I S T H A T ?? And dont give me any poatriotic shit Vorlin! // PAR // And now thoughts on current situation : did America ask any1 when they Bombed Irak, Yugoslavia, etc etc. Why do you think that u have to stick yer loooong nose in everyones business ? Another thing with Russia: when war in Chechnya was ongoing, all Eastern propaganda was sreaming that Russians kill inocent people, and that Russian government has to stop that war. What about the kidnapping that was happening all across Russian federation ? Hostages were taken by Chechen terrorists and taken back to Chechnya. What about the cities of : Budenovsk, Kizlar, even Moscow and many others. WHAT WAS THAT ? fight for freedom ? *spit*. When terrrosists leaded by Basaev took over a maternity ward in Budenovsk, and killed mothers with their unborn children was it OK ? // PAR // M Y M A I N T H O U G H T : More than anything else current terrorist attacks in USA are a lesson to the USA. Cold war is over. Russian is _NOT_ your enemy anymore. You have to think again be4 denying any worldwide help on this mess in NYC. You must change fundametals of your beliefs and not spit out pathetic bullshit that you saved some1 in WW2 or financial aid yayayadda yadda. G R O W U P MENTALLY AND MORALLY!

...hmm let them just kill each other. Chinese brothers will just clap their hands :)

Roma neuzeli ti s Vorlinom ?? Ili ti dumajesh sho Rogon prosto pizdit ? On to tut odni iz neplohih misley viskazal :P

Roma neuzeli ti s Vorlinom ?? Ili ti dumajesh sho Rogon prosto pizdit ? On to tut odni iz neplohih misley viskazal :P

Rofl That devastator loser is really a funny guy !

Fisben seems to have a point in what he is saying (I actually read it all). *clap*

I think Devastator just showed his true intelligence if that was really him that posted there. Huffing glue destroys brain cells man, take it easy on that stuff.

I appreciate your opinion much, Sverker. I was just trying to view this problem in a diff way: like that we have to change, get out of our bunkers where we are warm and comformtable and look at the real world! I say : "Live in the real world, and not in your dreams, history books or selfconfidence."

Gig, just got a funny idea. This Russia - America situation in the past (and as it seems still,from the comments of some people here) is very similar to the rules of mume. In other words, I believe the rules clearly state: if you see * blabla * , you must strike and kill (or die), no communication or whatsoever. Funny isn't it? And i'd bet most pro-american posters would call Russians disgusting, dirty orcs, and Americans ... Ah you are talking about those elegant, peaceful elves right? POINT: dont sound one-sided!

Fisben, ask the Kuwaitis or the Saudis if we were 'sticking our nose in their business' when we saved them from Saddam. As the ethnic Albanians the same question when we saved them from being genocided by Milosevic (sp?). As far as the Chechnyans go, Russia invaded them -long- ago, and they've fought like tigers over ever since. It was Russia's choice to stay, and if the Chechnyans are using terror (which I don't agree with when the target isn't military) they sure aren't the only ones. The Russians are raping, looting, and burning everything they find in that area. /par/ American culture no better than Russian? Oh my, that's gotta be one of them most hilarious things I've ever heard. A country destroyed by pollution, crime, poverty, and despair. A country whose medical system is more frightening than any terrorist. A country where all during the cold war the most valuable contraband was *gasp* American goods. I notice your scholarship was to America, not Russia. Surprised you didn't stay closer to home being as America is no better... /par/ I'm sorry some redneck shot off his mouth when you were here, but your extreme reaction to that shows you don't have anything close to a handle on what America is really about. In fact, as far as I can tell from your little rant you don't have a handle on much of anything...

"but your extreme reaction to that shows you ..." ok. Is your reaction not extreme, or you are the daddy and can say anything !? Again, I can agrue with you here all day, and we will both stay with our opinions. But i would really like to know what age you are, for the purpose of finding out who am I dealing with: a teenager with not yet stabilised philosophy or a grownup who has his own thoughts and does not copy from books, other's words etc.

I will answer to your "output" in parts, so i can actually give you facts and not the "fury attitude" you are giving me. // PAR //
1) "As the ethnic Albanians the same question when we saved them from being genocided by Milosevic (sp?)" - have you asked those ethnic albanians when NATO forces entered their country, and USA carpet-bombed the landscape ?
2)"The Russians are raping, looting, and burning everything they find in that area." - 1 question: have you ever been there ? All the fucknut news you get in USA about chechnya is propaganda! Have you ever seen a video of Chechen terrorists shooting off fingers of the hand of a kidnapped businessman, just because he did something wrong ? have you ever seen a video of a chechen terrorist chopping of a man's head with an axe, beacuse that man's family had no money to pay the kidnappers for his freedom? DO you know that chechen snipers dont kill Russian shoulders immediately and that they shoot in the genital area first, and after the man is screaming for half an our they make a control shot in the head ? And to the point of your question: any facts prooving russian soldiers actually raped some1 ?
3)"I notice your scholarship was to America, not Russia. Surprised you didn't stay closer to home being as America is no better..." - i was just a teenage fuck 16 yrs of age then. And i sounded just like you. Know I am 19, I am at my 2nd College year, and you know what ? I realise that trip had brought me no good, except a good english, few sightseeings and tons of memories. Just look at a typical american weekend: drive at a party, drink, smoke weed, fuck some drunk/unconscious slut, wake up and go home. Yes we drink here too, but you apparently drink for no reason at all - all your "weakends" are the same, your life is gray.
4)"but your extreme reaction to that shows you don't have anything close to a handle on what America is really about" - i am not the only one on this forum that thinks America is all about arrogant, selfconfident, pathetic people like you that believe history books more than their mind. NO SERIOUSLY : all the stuff that went into your direction from Rogon and others did no good. You did not accept a single fact they brought.

You apparently just dont understand another thing. Most of the terrorist fightin agains Russia in Chechnya are fighting a D Z E H A D. Dzhehad is a declaration of war against other religion, against the people that dont believe into the same God that terrorists believe into. Dont get me wrong here: I am not saying all Islamic people are bad and they are terrorist - NO. Most of the islamic people are peaceful, and respect other people's believes. Just those crazy motherfuckers that think their god is supreme and all others must die, declare dzehad on me, on you, on every1 else that doesnt beleive in the "right" god.

eh .. I cant debate with you all day here, I am too busy with my php code here, and have to go home actually. Leave your thoughts here i will respond to them tomorrow ...

Mume War already make a lots of people suffering so we don't need another WAR. Maybe all country leader must play Mume and only fight in the game not in the Real World. STOP THE WAR !! PEACE ON EARTH !!

Last thought for you to chew on: just because your Backstreet Boys, Macdonalds shitfood, 50 star flag is everywhere doesnt mean you are the supreme nation of the world and save every1 ass. I aint saying America sucks. HELL NO! There are tons of smart people there, and I still correspond with some that i met during my exchange year in USA. But people like you make me sick!

That was to Vorlin

It may be correct that WW2 could have been won without the help from US. I doubt it, but it could be right. On the other hand, it's a certain fact, that any country the USSR 'liberated' were annexed, in effect making it a communist country. It's also a fact that the US by helping in (and after) WW2 in effect 'americanized' Europe. A fact that I'm VERY happy about today, because this little fact has made it possible for me to say and think just about ANYTHING that I would my for entire life. Think about that for a second if you will: The outcome of WW2 was in the end NOT just a question of saving the world from Hitler, but also of keeping as many countries as possible democratic and 'free'. Yes, the free world may have its shortcomings, but does anyone here really think the alternative is better?

I am impressed!, you are all complete morons. Grow up allready. This goes for both the utterly idiotic people who thinks America "deserved it" and the American drones repeating old bullshit propaganda they learn at school. Y'all need to see shrinks.

Hello, I am the 1st Amendment to the United States Constitution. I am what makes "old bullshit propaganda" pretty useless most of the time. Anybody who wants to bring out truth or make a quick buck can write anything about anybody or any event to set the record straight. Everything is open to examination. There are historians alive today writing exposes of the founding fathers and challenging decisions made 200-300 years ago. Bush can't blow his nose without being subject to analysis and criticism. In the U.S. people are exposed to constant stream of information from every point of view. We like it that way, because we don't want to end up as ranting ill-informed dimwitted ideologues like Fisben and Devastator. (Poor Fisben, brain dead at 19.)

I'm 38 years old. I'm not part of the gray mainstream, or I wouldn't be mudding at this age. I have interests ranging from yoga, astronomy, math, computers, computer gaming, physics, history, complexity theory, and lots more. I'm not a patriot, nor am I espousing propaganda. I personally consider patriotism a mental virus. A government is a tool made by people to improve their lives, I don't worship my country any more than I'd worship a table saw. I collect sources from -everywhere- (including here, if someone says something that looks like it leads somewhere, I'll research it). Obviously I've stated some extreme interpretations in what I've written above, that's a standard method of debating. But leaving aside political correctness, and leaving aside envy and other such emotions, it can easily be seen that America has been the dominant nation in world affairs for the last 60-80 years. And its domination at this time doesn't seem likely to be ending any time soon. Whether this makes anyone happy or unhappy is a moot point. Whether that hurts your own national pride is a moot point. It's a physical fact. And I think this fact upsets a lot of the people here, and thus they post things that if they were thinking clearer they would never say. Now, part 2 covers Fisben's last few posts...

Anyone here really thinks Bin Laden will play nice in the future if we left him alone? People who suicide for a cause and are willing to kill as many as they can in the process aren't usually open to reasonable dialogue. Do you think Bin Laden is worried about causing civilian casualties? Seems that's exactly what he was aiming for.

There was no carpet bombing in Yugoslavia, there wasn't even heavy bombing. There were cruise missile strikes and bombings of military targets that Milosevich (sp?) valued, but (with the noteable exception of the Chinese embassy) these were all precision hits. Go through Belgrade, it's not lying in ruins, Fisben. If we'd heavily bombed it it would be a pile of rubble now. And none of that occurred in the Albanian invaded territory, the destruction you saw there on TV was a result of the genocide efforts of the slavs: kill all the men, burn down the houses, scatter the people into the countryside to freeze when winter came. You think the albanians resented us being there? We kept them from being exterminated. /par/ Noone with any sense has ever said the Chechnyan campaign waged by the Russians is anything but totally brutal, on both sides. Have you seen me say one word implying that the Chechnyans are innocent martyrs? No, you haven't. Both sides seem to be in a contest to see just how utterly brutal they can be to each other. How do I know what the Russians have done? Because I've seen the film of the rubble they've left behind with their rocket launcher artillery and air strikes (as I noted many posts back, noone else does the precision strikes like the U.S.). Because I've seen interviews with anonymous Russian field soldiers testifying that they did all the things I've described. Both sides say the same thing: they do it, so we do it. But the Chechnyans would have to blow up buildings in Moscow for the next 30 years to equal the wreckage their cities have been turned into, so right now I'd say they are behind the 'barbarity' curve. /par/ And Fisben, the fact that the only thing you did in America was get drunk and get laid doesn't say anything about this country, it just says something about you. You could have done most anything while you were here (that's the beauty of this country), instead you just partied. Which would have been fine (whatever floats your boat), but apparently you didn't even like that. *rolls eyes* I find it amazing that someone from a former Soviet satelite country could even feel one touch of sympathy for the Russians. The Russian policy of stripping every possible resource from their satellites, of making sure that no satellite had what it needed to be independent, and then later after the breakup doing their best to try to cripple the newly emerging countries both economically and politically, left most of the people in those countries (who had a clue) deeply resentful of the terrible situation they were left in. The details of your particular country I don't know, but I have followed the Ukraine's attempt to get their country running as an independent nation, and I can tell that the fuckjob the Russians did on that country will take decades to even begin to be fixed. Fredde's wonderful communism has created a hell hole of a huge portion of the earth, and in some cases has so badly damaged the people and the enviroment that it might -never- recover. No, I don't hate Russians. No, I don't hate foreigners (I'm a xenophile, for God's sake *laugh*). If I felt that way, I'd never play on mume to begin with. But allow me to feel a bit sick inside as I contemplate the misery that terrorist, communism, and other such debacles have inflicted on the human race. To watch someone foul their own nest is bad enough, to be asked to stand idly by while they try to foul the world is too much.

http://www.alternet.org/index.html

so you guys think america should stand by and let bin laden get away with this shit i say america should kill him by any means nessessary and if afgahn's civilians get killed it is there own damn fualt for not handing him over when we asked

so violence is the solution to violence? i disagree. extending your logic, the U.S bombs everyone into submission eventually.

So you think inaction will stop Bin Laden or other terrorists from doing more acts like the one we saw? Doing nothing will just be a burning beacon showing them that what they did they can do again and with impunity. So what do you suggest we do Goretongue, point our fingers and shout 'naughty boy, don't do it again!'? Bin Laden and other factions like his are after one thing, destruction of western civilization, and even more specifically, the US. They have already declared war on us, long before this incident ever happened. In a perfect world we could all hold hands and sing Kumbaya as we danced naked around a campfire, but this isn't a perfect world by far. Sometimes to maintain some semblance of peace, you need to act.

Wow I thought maybe just one other person would fucking agree with me.
I keep reading more and more of this USA attack all over the fucking place.
It pisses me off.
WHY WON'T IGNORANT FUCKING PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THEY FLEW INTO THE WORLD TRADE CENTER AND PENTAGON.
AMERICANS DIED IN THE PENTAGON. So in that respect us americans should feel mad at it. But at the same time they flew into THE WORLD TRADE CENTER. Keyword world....... so that means not just americans died..... And still I see nothing about the other nations... Man I have a loss of words at how some americans are just saying they attacked JUST america they attacked the whole fucking world....

Well maybe it is that I don't write through enough... here it is
OSAMA BIN LADEN ATTACKED THE WHOLE WORLD THAT DAY...
does anyone agree with me ???????/

Yes, Joei, the terrorists attacked the whole world on September 11, 2001 and they hold the whole world hostage as long as they remain free. Thank your for pointing that out. (Go tell your Mom I said you can have a cookie now.)

Vorlin - ask the Kuwaitis or the Saudis if we were 'sticking our nose in their business' when we saved them from Saddam.

There it is again, WE saved them. Please give it up, the arabs might wery well have taken care of that themselves, if not for the oil there prolly wouldnt have been any NATO in the Gulf.

Yea, Kuwaitis take care of themselves. *chuckle*. OK, oh fuck I won't even GO there. Just like Belgium tried to take care of Germany.

Well, the Kuwaitis obviously couldn't take care of themselves, their country was completely occupied when the Gulf War was launched (hell, that was -why- it was launched). Saudi Arabia has a nice force (U.S. equipment, the good stuff like F-15s/F-16s), but was just too small to stop Saddam's army. Saudi Arabia has a pretty good transport system, that's a tankman's dream, Saddam's tank corps would have been all over the country before they could put up an effective resistance. So yes, sorry if it bothers you, but the U.S. saved their asses. For a very practical reason, not idealism, but a save is a save when you're the one being saved. When you're drowning, you don't spend a lot of time worrying about why someone is throwing you a life preserver, you just grab the damn thing. /par/ Sverker (and others) please do at least 10 minutes of research on the net before posting such ridiculous things. The fact that your testosterone is running rampant is no indication you actually know anything about something. *wink*

Everhate, where did I advocate "inaction"? I have noticed it is one of your favorite tactics to take someone's words and Add to them some meaning that clearly was not intended, then in a "stunning display of wit" shoot down the faux argument. I simply do not think the answer to this problem is to kill more humans--inaction is something you injected into my comment. Unfortunately, violence has been, and I am sure will continue to be the U.S response to threats to "national security" (a handy excuse for causing the deaths of non-U.S. humans). U.S foreign policy needs to change--it breeds contempt for Americans worldwide and is a leading cause of misery. U.S. citizens' lifestyles need to change--of course we are hated: we throw away as much as we eat, while millions starve. Greed needs to be dethroned. Compassion needs to replace materialism. Killing more humans only provides a SEMBLANCE of peace, as you so aptly put it, and it will only fuel the fires burning in the hearts of the downtrodden, resulting in yet ANOTHER ESCALATION in the attack on decadent Western Civilization. Capiche? I doubt it. Probably too busy waving your flag and getting goose bumps from Dubya's pathetic nationalist propoganda.

then what do you suggest goretongue?

Bloody hell I don't even know what to comment any more.... any ideas ?

I've been thinking about this quite a bit, one thing is clear right off: a campaign based solely on violence will not end terrorism no matter how effectively waged. It's possible that it will even increase it. I think the root of the entire problem is that neither the U.S. nor Israel show Islam a proper respect. The air of superiority mentioned by several posters here is definitely seen in any dealing of Americans with Arab/Islamic people. Only by consciously reaching out and working with Islamic people can this problem ever be dealt with in a successful way. There will always be nuts (notice the spree killers in the U.S.), but they will be the exception. I think many Islamic people feel they've been backed into a corner by U.S. policy, a corner where terrorism is the only option. We need to give them another option, because if terrorism is all they have to work with then they'll never stop using it.

As far as I can tell, Goretongue thinks we can solve the world's problem if we eat more and have less garbage. The rest was pretty much unintelligible.

What is "proper respect" for Islam, Vorlin? Don't go wussy on us. If you give in to terrorism, it doesn't go away. If you want to escalate terrorism, change policies to make bin Laden happy. That will send a message to every other terrorist group that terrorism works. If there is an irony in the WTC attack, it is that whatever bin Laden wants he can never have now. Even if the U.S. decided today it was the right thing to do, we couldn't do it because the world would see it as capitulation to terrorism.

The king of Jordan proclaims the beginning of the third world war. The Taliban govenrnment of Afhanistan declare 'Jihad' (or Dzhehad, if you prefer), against the west. You know, the idea of bombing them into the stone age has ocurred to some of you, but it seems that the Russians have already accomplished that goal. This is not a shocking development, but it was my understanding that the 'Holy Men' of the Taliban were going to meet and decide whether or not to give up Bin Laden. Hmmmm. I guess they want to keep the guy after all.

Hmm what do you think afgans would do if US forces would strike them?
I think there would be more terrorism acts against US and all countries invelved in that strike. Terorrism acts near which the last one will look like just a kids game. I think that US should kill only people involved in acts but not all civilians in region. Like CIA did for a long time till early 80th.
I hate terrorists also I dont like afgans but if I was there I would be one of first who would sign contract to fight against invaders (this time against US)

EAT MORE WOBBIT

Really, there is not much to bomb in Afghanistan, as I said b4, the Russians pretty much took care of that already. At this point, we need to build up an alliance which includes the Pakis, and I have heard some rumblings on the Iranian side that they might not be the best friends of the Taliban either. In addition, one of the ex-Soviet Republics just to the north (and I can't right now recall if it was Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan or Tajikistan) has offered their bases to the US on a temporary basis. I think that the Taliban is not much loved in the region (just ask the Afghani Bhuddists) and the US probably can make some agreements there. An invasion of Afhanistan is probably not the best strategy we can utilize. I believe that I prefer a raiding strategy rather than a persisiting one. We can certainly find some Afhani's who want the Taliban overthrown and support their efforts to re-take their country, while providing close air support and heavy artillery when necessary. Otherwise, our best bet is to find their concentrations (soldiers and terrorists, definitely NOT civillians) and take them out with light infantry assault teams, air cav and fighter support. These are just my uniformed ruminations on the topic.

Anga, it is Uzbekistan that offered to allow us to use bases there (apparently we've conducted some joint military exercises with them in the past). Last I heard, Tajikistan refused us access, not surprising considering they are leaning more and more toward strict fundamentalism as time goes by (I knew a female exchange student from there, and she was -not- happy about going back home). /par/ George, no wussiness involved, any political agenda has to have a 'carrot and stick' approach. The 'stick' in this case is decisive military actions taken against any group/country that uses terrorism. What we don't have yet is the 'carrot', and that is what I was talking about in that last post. The most effective way to combat terrorism isn't with violence (terrorist base their entire lives on violence, how scared of it can they be?), the best way is to make sure that noone ever chooses to be a terrorist in the first place. That's the only viable long-term solution, otherwise we'll just end up like Israel: fighting an unending bloody war against an enemy that never stops. Israel has tried the 'stick, no carrot' approach for decades and it's obviously a complete failure. We need to do better, either that or get used to an endless siege.

VORLIN, UR A MORONIC AMERICAN IDIOT, your faking amerika did nada exept bobmbin innocent people, who the fuck wanted amerika to save yougpslavia from Miloshevich???? and its fucking easy to find out his mobile phone and launch your tomogavk on the signal, not bombing hospitals etc. just admit, that america sux, and sux hard

Stolb, you ask a good question. It was not America's idea to go into Yugoslavia, and many of us here were against any kind of militaristic advertures in the Balkans. It is my understanding that the Albanians are the worst kind of terrorists, and that our intervention in the area has only led to further destabalization (i.e. Montenegro). We were prodded and pleaded with by our NATO allies to come and help their ideals. As it turns out, our NATO allies thought that Miloshevich was a bit too brutal in his support of murderous 'militias' (and here you might disagree, in my research of this topic, I have come across many anti-American web pages and naming NATO as the butchers, I can understand that point of veiw as well), and so we were bound by the politics of Europe to come in and do our bit. I did laugh at the so-called 'accidental' bombing of the Chinese embassy as being one of the most transparent political moves by our previous (and dishonest) president, Clinton. It has been my firm belief (because my gf is a 1st generation American, her parents are Serbian) that we prolly should have stayed out of that little disagreement. Not all America sux, and sux hard, you see? Or mebee you won't, but politics played a huge role in that particular struggle. You know, tho, Miloshevich did not have to be such a HUGE bastard, did he?

you ever notice Europeans bitch more than any others people
(actually whine) rather than take a stand on anything? Your own
people died here, and you would rather have flame wars with the
US at your computers. Cmon, Bin Laden admitted to having a hand
in the Navy ship bombing and the Embassy bombings. But because
noone can single handedly proven he had a part in the WTC, the
common European quakes at the thought of the mighty US doing
anything that might rid the world of a MASS MURDERER. I think we
should just say fuck Europe since your all a bunch of cowards anyway
who wont even fight for your own that were killed here. Sickening.
With your mindset, because the US is a majorpower and you've
ALWAYS resented us, you'd rather see a mass murder continue to
train the barbarians in the world in mass destruction and anarchy.
Europeans ...pfft

If I was alive, training terrorist groups, I bet the Eurotrash
would be begging for American help. Oh wait, there Government
is smart enough to see that, only the people are cowards.

Hmm low educated people (Like 95% of all americans) Is for war, highly educated people often are against war. How come ?

George W Bush - We will have the Best American students........in America !

Hmm... low educated people (Like 95% of all Americans) are for war. Highly educated people (unlike myself) often are against war. How come? George W. Bush says, "We will have the Best American students in America, and NOT in any foreign country. They don't teach foreigners how to spell very well, nor do they teach them proper grammatical language skills.

Well you prolly cant even speak another language. in other words your a retard

Well, you probably can't even speak another language (kind of like me). In other words, you're a retard.

Buy me! I'm not that expensive, you know!!!

To Fisben. Da ja i ne chital zdes pochti nichego. Vse pridurki, osobenno lochdale i vorlin. Vot budet ww3, posmotrim, komu est, chto terjat, a komu terjat osobo nechego. A ona pohozhe budet :)PP

when you start to complain about others spelling you know that you have lost and you just need to find something to complain about so you dont loose your face. just watch the news. have you seen that thousands and thousands afgahns are fleeing from their own country because they are afraid of war? but the us goverment dont care about that, they still gonna start a war. and you can never give a god reason to start a war.

Vorlin:(as I noted many posts back, noone else does the precision strikes like the U.S.). . . . What technology do you think that the US posesses that other western countries don't have? Get a grip on reality. Just because others don't roam the world bombing countries every second year, doesnt mean they don't have the *ability* to do so, but have their armies for self defence mainly. . . And i have to say that the precision bombings, and the target selection, isn't very impressive. Serbia - chinese embassy, Sudan (one target bombed only, i think) - and someone in the US military chose a medicine factory, that the UN had helped with knowledge/money to buy. strong going.

Vorlin, i have gained some respect to you, when finding out that you are 39 yrs old. But at the same moment i knew that it ment that you probably fully understand what you are saying. Thus bestoving much more responsiblity for your own words. I think i can afford to compare you with devastator to clear things out. Obviously Devastator isn't that mature, and playing mostly trolls has developed a huge "fresh meat" instinct in him. You can see that just from all his posts being in caps. Secondary, you being a mature human being, must understand that from my only post about my trip to USA, you cant fairly and fully judge what i have done in America during my International student exchange program. I haven't partied that much and I haven't fucked a single teenage dirtbag in that public highschool. When i see people in 10th or 11th grade solving quadratic equations and thinking they are kings of mathematics, when I see same kids pronouncing the word 'penis' as loud as they can in the school cafeteria without getting into trouble I simply conclude that socializing with this scum of the American community is a waste of time. However debating with you is a pleasure to me in a way. It is always a pleasure to agrue with an educated opponent, even if our beliefs are completely opposite.

Groan Rogon. You seem to come out with these "factoids" without ever backing them up with even the suggestion that you have any support for your statements. What technology does the US have that European countries do not? Try a significant amount including the smart bomb technology, the fastest, largest and most efficient nuclear submarines that have no comparrison on the planet. Try reading Jane's Defense for a complete and thorough review of US vs European defenses. Indeed, look at the debacle that is the "European Fighter" which has been in development for years and is stil considered a "poor mans F-16" (Jane's Defense World Review 2000) which itself is an aircraft on the way out. You seem like an intelligent fellow but you need to get a little deeper on your subject matter. Lastly, the US is criticized if it carpet bombs and is also criticized if it use precise or smart bomb technology! Evidently, it can't win. So tell me Rogon, what should they do? Send Jimmy Carter over and bulid some houses? So don't tell Vorlin to get a grip until you display some semblance of depth or breath of knowledge on a subject.."what technology does the US have" LOL. Oh, and your response to my pointing out that Russia's infrastructure in WWII would have sunk without US intervention was not so good. Responding that "all the countries of the world helped" missed the point entirely and was a total retreat from your earlier comments.

And Fishben, your disgust at socializing with Americans because they are unworthy suggest the very type of arrogance displayed by the very imperialists that you hate. Come off the high-horse Fishben, its actually ok down here amongst the locals.

And now more to the sole point of your last few posts. Why i believe that the trip to USA was negative rather than positive to me is, because after a month spent there and after realising that i cant really socialize with anyone in that region except grownups in my host families, teachers and a few smart people in school taht actually are somewhat interesting to talk to, I found out that my further stay is going to be boring. Yes it's pretty much a fact that America has been dominant in the world for the past 50-60 years. But, and this -but- is a huge but, I would precisely state "dominate economically, militarily and politically". I haven't seen any worthwhile writers, artists or other intelligent people origining from the United States. If you separate all those teenybopper bands and singers like : Britney Spears, Backstreet boys etc you can spot out only a few artists that are worth listening to. All Holywood movies that are worth watching are filemed by asian film directors (with few exceptions like Steven Spielberg). Dominant economic won't lead you to a perfect lifestyle, you just gotta have some real culture. And look at Russia, the country you are describing as "A country destroyed by pollution, crime, poverty, and despair." Yet people like Zhores Alferov, getting a noble prize. // http://www.extech.msk.su/english/objavas/alferov.htm // The new scientific line, i.e. physics of heterostructures, electronics and optoelectronics on their basis, was formed owing to the research of Zhores Ivanovich.

According to materials of NG ? 192 of the 11th of October, 2000 ///// There are many other examples i could bring to you, but my main point is: as you have stated here that USA saved Europe in WW2, USA has helped Saudi, Ethnic Albanians blablabla, USA can't pretty much do anything else than showing its power to the whole world, showing it's economical dominance and dollar being the prime currency, USA pretty much has nothing else. I dont think French, British or Russian intelligence (i.e. educated and elite people, not intelligence meaning security agencies) will speak about American society reaching any high levels in its social life. Shopping in Wallmart, eating in McDonalds and getting cassetes in VideoCave isnt what I call social life. Getting drunk and laid every weekend isn't that either. Oh, of course I forgot about you - being "not part of the gray mainstream" and "having interests ranging from yoga, astronomy, math, computers, computer gaming, physics, history, complexity theory, and lots more", you the almight one probabaly read Chechov, Gete, Kant and Heminguay every time you go to bed. // PAR // And to all others calling me "brain dead at 19". I think I am much less fucked up than you, growing up in a communist country in my early childhood, seeing barricades and trace bullets with my own eyes not on TV but in the city I live in, have taught me much more than your pussiefied American society guarding you from any threat at all. Look at your own nation. Most of the America's best thinking people come either from abroad, or the ghetto - where they had to fight for survival and leadership from their early childhood. Oh of corse i forget those teens who's parents' wallets and bank accounts are loaded with anormous amounts of those "green papers", that go to private schools, then study in Cambridge, Harvard, MIT, Yale, Stanford, Princeton and many more. Living in the real world and fighting for your life makes you strong, that is why people from post communist countries will lead our world in the future. That is why people like Dmitriy Sclarov piss off American forces like Adobe corp., FBI, CIA and many others. You have to face it and agree to me Vorlin, that most IT brains are bought by USA from abroad, that is why immigration is pretty much unlimited to people in the IT sphere. Good luck (and steel nerves and patience) on reading, and post some more, i'd love to answer :)

The Su - 37 is a supermanoeuvrable version of modern Russian fighter Su - 35. For the first time the new Su - 37 fighter, whose reversible thrust engine makes it highly maneuverable ... http://canopus.lpi.msk.su/~watson/su37.html ///////// The missile is Fed by an automatic loader launched through the gun tube and then guided on a laser beam at a range of 5 km. The T - 90 is reliably protected against conventional weapons ( projectiles, ATGM warheads, mines, splinters, small arms bullets, etc.). For the first time the T - 90 was provided with the Shtora - 1, optronic counter measures system... http://logos.cyber.mephi.ru/~maxwolf/armor/t90.html //////// Splav SRPA - Military production - 300 mm Long - Range Multiple Rocket Launch System "Smerch"
...The distinctive feature of "Smerch" MLRS is the system of projectile flight control.
300 mm Long - Range Multiple Rocket Launch System "Smerch
http://www.splav-tula.ru/eng/smerch.htm

You wont any more ? just let me know and I will shove tons of military info up your ass ...

I "disgust socializing with Americans" because most of them are more interested in Pokemon than their education and IQ level.

Ohh, I spotted this piece of info that will destroy your glory and belief in the superpower USA in 1 quick, yet powerful hit ! // PAR // In the field of air defence tasks, the MiG - 31 outperforms the F - 14 Tomcat, F - 15 Eagle and Tornado F3. The MiG - 31 is capable of long - time patrolling and destroying different types of targets,... // MORE // RUSSIAN AIRCRAFT CORPORATION "MIG"

STATISTICS
200 combat aircraft conceived
62 combat aircraft entered series production
60,000 MiG aircraft produced
11,000 MiG aircraft exported to more than 40 countries worldwide

This is to finish it off : http://www.airshow.ru/expo/293/2_6.htm is really worth looking at
///// a-50 "Black Shark" is a single-seat attack helicopter for destroying armored vehicles, slow-speed air targets and manpower on the battlefield. .... The emergency pilot escape system, comprising an ejection seat, saves the pilot within the entire flight speed and altitude range. A set of improved survivability means allows Ka-50 to attack successfully the specified targets and to survive under intensive fire counteraction.

Wow, lot of posts since I went to bed. /par/ As to the person bringing up spelling and language skills, that should never be considered a refutation of the original poster's point, and especially not in a forum where many people don't speak english as a primary language. I have great respect for -anyone- who can learn this language, being as it seems to have no rules whatsoever. Spanish, for instance, is incredibly easier to learn. /par/ To Fisben and Rogon, let me be more clear what I meant by U.S. superiority in weapon technology: when it comes to high-volume sustained military operations, no country on this planet has the quality or amount of high-tech munitions that the U.S. has. Other countries have smart bombs, they don't have enough to wage a war with them alone. Other countries have good jets, they don't have the electronics or air-to-air range to compete with ours. Other countries have cruise missles, but they don't have an economy strong enough to let them afford to use them simply to avoid civilian casualties. In other words, America is the only country with the technology and wealth that allows it to carry on a massive military campaign -and- strive to minimize civilian casualties. Other countries can do one of those, but so at this point in time only America can do both. /par/ Fisben, I misread your older post to mean that you were drinking and partying along with the rest. From what you say now, I see that was a misunderstanding on my part. And yes, if you are smart and interested in cultural pursuits high school in America can easily be seen as a dreary wasteland of spaceheads and idiots. But if you are above average, then that will tend to be the story whereever you go. There are never as many above average people as average (by definition), so it always takes extra effort to find them, no matter what country you live in. /par/ About our cultural and intellectual heritage (and current state), let me just toss in a few points. There is no doubt that some of the greatest minds in American history weren't born here. What I find telling is that they chose to -come- here. Huge numbers of them, from all over the world, from all the cultures of the world. These brilliant people obviously saw something in America that you haven't seen. Second, you mentioned that America is culturally impoverished, but yet is economically world dominant. But how is our economy so strong? Because we produce the goods, services, technology, and ideas that people want. A person's (and country's) economic strength is directed related to how much the people around them value them. Regardless of what they say, people around the world work like hell to buy what America offers (directly or indirectly), and that is the reality behind the words. /par/ Does America have flaws? You bet. As Fisben noted above, money can buy you a prestigious degree, political friends can get you appointments you don't deserve, our long safety from world conflict on our own soil has made us somewhat naive (we're getting a wakeup call now, though), and I'll definitely agree that many Americans have a 'we're #1 and you all plain suck' attitude that is completely unjustified. But those flaws are completely dwarfed by the freedom and empowerment the American system gives to individuals. There are more ways to achieve stunning personal success in America than any other country currently existing. And that I think is the reason why so many of the best minds in the world come here, because they know that (usually) only their limitations will hold them back here. Even with the tighter immigration rules we currently have, America is still the world's melting pot for every race, culture, idea, religion, and hair style known to humans. :)

Just an addition bit, Americans tend to do everything to extreme. That means when they party, they party hard. But as a rule, they'll turn around and work just as hard. To give an example, from the time I was 13 (around 1976) everyone in my suburbia neighborhood was smoking cigarettes and marijuana (except me, I was a total bookworm at the time). They stayed stoned -all- the time, from when they got up in the morning to when they went to bed (marijuana was $20 an ounce back then, so it wasn't hard to do). They drank whenever they could get alcohol (which was pretty often), usually to the point of vomiting *laugh*. So where are those people now? One runs the warehouse operations of the second largest appliance chain in my city, one is a state-wide auditor in the mental health profession, one is a top executive of a nation-wide insurance firm, etc., etc. In other words, when they were kids they partied their asses off, when it came time to work, they work their asses off. Some people here only do one or the other, but the vast majority do both: we work hard, we play hard. :)

I think it's ok to criticize someone's spelling when there point goes something like this, "I yum rully rully smirt, butt U R rully dum!" How can you not point out that they are not quite as smart as they think, and so maybe their other conclusions are equally confused?

Fishben: Hemingway was American. The MIGS class is a great fighter jet with profound navigational problems and the worse maintenance record and flight to crash ratio of any mass produced military aircraft. (Janes Defense World Review 2000 - again). Also, have you considered that more MIGS are sold to other countries because 1) The Russians sell significantly more armenants world wide then the US and 2) the US has always been reluctant to part with its most significant technology? Lastly, John Ford was one of cinemas greatest ever Directors and Producers. The man Kirosowa (sp) called the greatest dirtector ever...of course we won't mention Cecil DeMille or Thomas Jefferson etc etc etc. For someone who claims to be so well educated Fishben you make a lot of generalizations.

Nuclear submarines? Gee. I thought we were talking about dropping bombs. Even sweden has laser guided systems for dropping bombs, guiding in missiles etc. I can't be bothered to go spam some webpage (or buy a book, whatever the jane's thing is.) but do tell me, how do the latest swedish/russian/american fighters compare?

Maybe you had such a hard time here Fisben because you were just too busy pondering how smart you were compared to everyone else. How could you possibly know what will be considered famous in art or entertainment in time? How can you even claim to know what others should consider 'cultered'? Many styles of music have been developed in the US, such as blues, r+b, country, rap, grunge, etc. While you may not like all or some of those styles personally, each has had artists that were quite remarkable individuals/groups and will be remembered long after you've fed the local worms. I'd also be more impressed with your learning Fisben if you were actually contributing to it. Reading other people's books,watching other people's movie, listening to other people's music, and then claiming to be educated and cultured because of it is hardly impressive. Anyone can memorize, it's what you do with that information that makes you intelligent.

Sweden has a military force comprised of more than a few lab groups of mudders Rogon? I'll be damned! Then again, if Sweden really is the beginning place of Borg technology, we should keep a better eye on you >;{

Noone needs to keep an eye on sweden, technologically advanced, and absolutely no clue about how to fight a war :) Guess it's from having a DEFENCE, only intended to defend the own territory, and not having been attacked for a few hundreds of years :)

Leave my baby alone. Can't you see he is bitter and frustrated because he was rejected by his American peers? The cool kids wouldn't hang out with him and he wasn't smart enough to hang out with the nerds. How would you like to have to spend you whole trip to America making crafts with somebody's grandma (and only cause she felt sorry for you)? Now he's stuck at age 25 "working in radio" (in other words, a go-fer and part time ad salesman). There's just nothing left for him except giving my daily foot rub and criticizing the Americans who spurned him. (Not that I blame them. Frankly, if he wasn't doing wonders for this bunion, I'd have kicked his pimply ass out of the house years ago. His dad still thinks we should have moved when he was in America.)

At one point Sweden did have a ferocious army but that was when armour ment just that and was not a reference to a tank division! I am not sure if Sweden can feel very proud of its activities in WWII. In essence, they where allowed to be neutral because it suited the Germans but I do know that is was not their finest hour. (To be fair, Ireland's behaviour in WWII was utterly disgraceful). Janes Defense is the premier non-military/governmental produced periodical on military developments. It is the bible for military techies. Basically, it states that the US has the most sophisticated fighter planes on the planet. There Air to surface technology is unsurpassed and they have been at the forefront of sattelite guidance (no-one but the British, Russians & French can even come close). Additioanally, there is a tremendous reluctance on the US's part to sell or trade its long range missile guidance technology which is world class (witness Chinas lack of ICMBs). The European fighter has been an abject failure but all is not lost for the advancement of European defense. Shorts (now a British/German company) has evidently produced a new satalite based surface to air guidance system that is reckoned to be able to take out the Stealth bomber and is signicantly more developed then the American's missile defense program.

Sorry to go on, but note that most of the US militarys most sophisticated hardware comes from the NASA and developments in the US space program. As the US space program is the most developed in the world we can see some of the technical advantages that the Americans might enjoy.

Advanced technologies and stealth bombers are useless here. Attack on Afghanistan from the air will only destroy civilians, no Taliban terrorists will die. They are very mobile, they have money, they have spies etc. They will NOT die, trust me. What might be a better solution is war on the ground. But then, US and NATO armies will have to pass through Pakistan and other arabic countries and subdue them in order to reach Afghanistan. That, of course, means that it is going to be a war of Islam against the West, i.e. III W.W., not just an act of retaliation. Osama bin Laden, in that case, will have over a billion (1000000000) people under his control (dont forget that he's already the unofficial king of Afghanistan). Can the West counterbalance a power so enormous? Noone can answer this. Even if the West wins, the casualties will be astronomical and i dont wanna think about it anyway. Im just saying that i am against war in any form. Not that it makes me feel better.

But but but, our latest swedish fighter, JAS 39 Gripen...its great if you want to make sideways rolls on the runway or perhaps crashland during a flightshow! I wanna see a F16 or any MIG do that! HA!

And people are you really serious about this bragging contest? its funny stuff no doubt, but there is a more serious matter up for discussion here. To touch the subject I have to agree with the Unknown who stated you are all morons :-)

And people are you really serious about this bragging contest? its funny stuff no doubt, but there is a more serious matter up for discussion here. To touch the subject I have to agree with the Unknown who stated you are all morons :-)

"A Swedish patriot" is too modest. He forgot to mention that the JAS 39 Gripen is computer programmed to sky-write "WE SURRENDER" in 118 languages (including 4 that haven't been spoken in over 600 years). Next to those yummy meatballs, it is Sweden greatest engineering achievement.

Now that is just plain mean Tiffle, we are pretty rocking fighters (check out our erlier crusades when we had norway findland and parts of russia) but we realized war doesnt bring anything good with it so we stopped. I guess some have that lesson yet to learn.

*rofl* Tiffle :) *par* Suka, Pakistan has given the U.S. complete cooperation on this issue, not only allowing us total access to their bases and country but sending representatives to the Taliban saying that Bin Laden must be handed over. /par/ BTW, the Taliban and Laden aren't equivalent, the Taliban is the Islamic religious group that currently holds power in Afghanistan, Laden doesn't control them so much as he contributes great amounts of money to them. If they do decide to give him up (or at least stop passively supporting him), then he'll have a lot more trouble hiding there. And there are some signs tonight that they are considering this issue. It has to be a tough call for them, their pride will tell them not to back down, their common sense will tell them that risking their lives to protect a murderer (who isn't even an Afghani) isn't particularly smart.

The Taliban will turn bin Laden's corpse over after he has a terrible accident of some kind in the next day or two. The other terrorists will get mad at them if they surrender a live body who could disclose information in exchange for special treatment (like not having his gonads chopped off with a dull axe).

Well lochdale, you in no way told me how the different modern fighters compare, and lets skip the eurofighter, it's not even done, is it? hrm. I want to know how the latest american/russian/swedish fighters compare. Oh btw, this jane's thing that tells you the US is best at everything. Let me guess... it's not written by russians, right? Didn't think so!

Rogon, Janes Defense is an English publication with contributors from all over the globe. If you think it is pro-American you just have not gotten it yet. You are too lazy to even try and look it but you want me to give you a comparison from the skematics up? I'll tell you what, I'll be happy to give you such a break down though I would like to see you express your thoughts (inc. your ignorance of Jane's Defense) to anybody with half a clue in a public discussion. It would give me a good laugh. I am at home right now but I'll get to it in the office on Wednesday or Thursday. No response on Sweden in WWII, Russian industrial production etc etc. Other then spouting generalities Rogon, do you have anything else too offer? BTW all please read the latest Economist (English publication Comrade Rogon) and its fine editorial (vast right-wing conspiracy Edvard

Lazy? It might just be that I don't care enough about the subject to spend any ammount on time finding out facts on it. As for something being english - yeah, whatever, england and the US are only >< that close. Sweden in WWII, did you ask any questions about it? All I saw was "they where allowed to be neutral because it suited the Germans". Is that a question? Or do you expect me to deny sweden tried to stay neutral? (*chuckle*). Just to show off your expertise knowledge tho, on sweden and WWII. How many norwegians that the nazis was hunting took refuge in sweden during WWII? How many swedes fought in finland against the russians? For how long was the swedish army mobilised during WWII? Was or was not the german armoured divisions in norway poised for an invasion of sweden, when fighting in russia went so bad they had to be shipped off to the eastern front instead? Maybe the Jane's thing has the answers.

Lazy? It might just be that I don't care enough about the subject to spend any ammount on time finding out facts on it. As for something being english - yeah, whatever, england and the US are only }{ that close. Sweden in WWII, did you ask any questions about it? All I saw was "they where allowed to be neutral because it suited the Germans". Is that a question? Or do you expect me to deny sweden tried to stay neutral? (*chuckle*). Just to show off your expertise knowledge tho, on sweden and WWII. How many norwegians that the nazis was hunting took refuge in sweden during WWII? How many swedes fought in finland against the russians? For how long was the swedish army mobilised during WWII? Was or was not the german armoured divisions in norway poised for an invasion of sweden, when fighting in russia went so bad they had to be shipped off to the eastern front instead? Maybe the Jane's thing has the answers.

Btw, don't try to write the bigger than/smaller than chars, it cuts the message right there even if you have more written down, as it did for me when i was going to illustrate just how close the US and the UK are!

What am I really disgusted, is speaking about hi-tech armies no matter whose are they. Army = killing, smaller Army is less killing and no army is no killing. I also want to say, that what you know about communism is worse then nothing. Yes there was big propaganda, but 90% of all people in my country were probably not affected by it and they had their own opinions and thinking. I am not sure that more than 50% of Americans have their own thinking and ideas. Most of all, what was here said by Americans sounded like from TV or newspapers and i dont mention speach about super-american-army (shiver). I wanna say that instead of writing you should listen and understnad more...

I haven't read Jane's for a -long- time, but I can add that it is definitive collection of unclassified knowledge about military hardware. Period. Only people with access to classified material know more about military weapons platforms than Jane's does. Yeah, the name is a fooler. *grin* /par/ In comparing aircraft now, the range of the air-to-air systems they carry is the critical stat. During the Gulf War the U.S. warplanes were getting missile lock on the Iraqi Migs 60 or more -miles- out of the range of the Iraqi planes. That made any air-to-air combat simply ridiculous, which is why Saddam quickly grounded his airforce. Noone in the world even comes close to the U.S. when it comes to battlefield electronic surveillance, and when that is tied in to the weapons systems of the units in the field the result is formidable. I'm not in the airforce, but I'd imagine that nowadays a plane's ability to maneuver is mostly only of use in dodging incoming missiles. Which isn't a small thing, but it's not nearly as important as it used to be. What I'd like to know (and maybe someone here has heard) is does the stealth fighter's anti-radar capability help it avoid long-range missile lock from opposing aircraft? If so, I'd damn sure not want to fly against it with anything out there today...

Lochdale, you seem to be sane and mature at times, so you cant honestly think that Jane's defense is a objective publication? There is FAR to much money in that industry for that ever to happen. If you for instance is comparing 2 jet fighters, just look at the statistics from dogfights in training or from live situations.

Pampalini, the 'no army = no killing' idea isn't new. The problem is that everyone who tries it suffers one of two fates: one, they get conquered by a neighbor that has an army. Two, they realize that is about to happen and have to seek shelter from a different neighbor who has an army, thus basically giving up their sovereignity to that neighbor. /par/ As long as there are people who'd rather take what others have (or destroy it) than work at making something on their own, we'll need police and armies. And since 'murderer', 'looter', 'rioter', 'brigand', and 'would-be world conqueror' seem built into human DNA, don't look for peace in the world any time soon. Probably ever. Nature has a world for pacifists: dinner.

hmm!.....mm....aha!!

200th post.

I am not going to argue about which nation is the strongest, the best, and which has the best army. The Pampalini’s question was – Do you really want war? It seems to me, that from American’s view there don’t live people in Afghanistan. Afghanistan is full of innocent civilians, who don’t want war, but do they have a choice? Some people here said some civilians may be accidentally killed. Well, who gave you right to kill innocent people?
The problem of Americans is that they imho think, that they are gods, because they live in large and rich country. That gave them false feeling about invulnerability and they because of that are not thinking about consequences, which their acts can bring in the future.
I am as Pampalini is, from the Czech Republic. If my country was attacked, we don’t have any chance, because we are too small and we almost don’t have army. So I can see the situation from the view of people from Afghanistan.
Don’t get my words as criticism of America, but look at those comments above. What do you can see? Many comments where are people ranting about how America is the best. Try to see the situation from a different view instead of telling us that you have best aiming technology. We are all people and that someone lives in a country with different culture, it doesn’t mean that he don’t have rights as a normal human.

I think I will jump into the fray here with a couple of points. As I see it the US really has two options in how to react to the terrorist attacks. #1. Do nothing #2. Do something. I think that it is pretty obvious that the do nothing choice isn't going to happen and I don't think that anyone can rightly argue that the US should just do nothing and say yeah we have pissed off a few people so we deserved to have two buildings and thousands of civilian lives destroyed to let us know that. From now own we will do whatever anyone in the rest of the world wants.
That means that the logical choice is to do something. The question is what do we do? This brings up a lot of varied opinions and is a worthy topic of discussion even amongst US citizens. Essentially, as I see it, we have to join forces with ALL the countries of the world to do what we can to fight terrorism. To do that it has to be fought at its roots and that may cause a bloody battle or two, but make no mistake the US has no desire to destroy Afganistan or any country. It has to be known that acts like this cannot and will not go unanswered (eg. if you shoot someone you get arrested). That is the only way to deter these types of actions. The last point that I will make is that until something happens, no one will know what the US plans are. Yes all signs point to Bin Ladden and Afganistan but the real target is eventually going to be whoever supported this act financially and as I look through the mounds of press I don't see where that has been determined. So, don't be suprised if you are suprised.

kak zde' vse zaebali menja, ja dazhe chitat' ne hochu. Fisben! Ti luche syda priezhaj, zdes est zavodi, vot i budesh prodavat eto vse dobro :) Mne 5% za ideyu i ja mogu smelo brosat uchebu :)

I think Vorlin put it best re: Jane's Defense and the MIG v. F series clashes. To suggest, however, that somehow Jane's is biased because it is English is absolutely ludicrious. Other then having no respect for the editorial credibility of that publication (please, please Rogon have the balls to opine in public on the weakness of Janes) lets look at it cynically. If Jane's where biased or controlled by the US defense industry wouldn't it take the other stance and build up other countries military know-how? And why would it do that? Well if I where the US Military or a defense contractor I'd want my organ to tell the world that the US defense are deficient and require additional spending in order to "get up to speed" with the rest of the world and thus, increase my budget/defense contract. Just a thought there lads. Lastly, Rogon, numerous Swedes have written on Sweden's role, or lack there of, in the war. To suggest that the German armour in Norway was "poised" to invade is the height of arrogance bordering on lunacy. Could the Germans have invaded, yes, where they there solely to corral Sweden? LOL!!! Let me think, perhaps they where there to cement control over Norway, control the shipping lanes and protect oil and German aricraft fields? The Irish army was mobilized and over 140,000 Irish fought with the British in WWII (population of 3.5 million that is a staggering amout) but does that mean we contributed to the war? Certainly not! So if you think Sweden's allowing its citizens to assist the Finn's in their incredible fight against the Russians gets them off the hook then you are wrong.

GIG. These comments like : Jon's father, Fisben's mom are actually funny to read. I wonder who is posting for all "our parents" ?? And Vorlin intelligent people come to America because they can make more money there and live like kings. I am sure I could have found smart people in the area that i lived in. But look at it, at 16 yrs old, I wasn't thinking like I do today. It simply didn't come to my mind, especially my guardian fucking caring for me like a madman! It seemed that exchange students are "expensive toys" for many Amercian families. When they have a student they can tell their friends : "You know what, we have that wonderful student from .... ahh ... from .. what is that country ... well it somewhere in Africa i believe." Seems it's the latest fashion - having an sxchange student makes you elite - above the average. Not sure if it is that bad tho, I ain't sure if I understood the circumstanes correctly, it just seems to me that way analyzing time spent there.

Fishben: Get off the high horse. Now for a quick generalization. Since living here I have noticed that there are two types of Americans. 90% of them are half-wits who are so insular and self-centered that it beggars beliefe (in their mind America is all that matters so screw the world) whereas it bothers the rest of the world because they want Americas attention. The other 10% are the brightest, saviest, toughest and hardest working professionals on the planet. You ask ANY European or Asian professional who works int finance or does any type of M&A or Bond work who the baddasses are and its the Americans hands down. The same goes for contractors, corporations and even the Banks are back on top. Fishben, your probably only a worthless student who studies medieval french romantic poetry until you are in your 30's and living in your parents basement.

AGREE WITH DEVASTATOR!!!!

Funny, you can't even try to answer my questions without starting to spam various childish insults. Is that your usual response when you lack knowledge about the subject and don't want to admit it? :) As for germany's eventual invasion of sweden, evidence was found that it was what they intended to do, but if it's correct or not, I'm not qualified to answer. But i guess from you, here and now on mume.net, the question has been given the final answer. gracias!

As to the 'Do you really want war?' question, it seems obvious that the U.S. has gone to -great- lengths to avoid just such a thing. This is not the first U.S. target that Laden has it. It isn't the second either. It's the third or fourth. Since he won't stop, since he won't surrender, and since he won't negotiate, we don't have a hell of a lot of options left, do we? For those who seem to have problems understanding this: we are not after Afghanistan. Read that again, it seems to be a point missed by many here. We are after Bin Laden. If the Taliban government insists on standing between us and Laden, then that's -their- choice, it certainly isn't ours. We'd much prefer they hand him over, or if they can't do that then step back and let us grab him. /par/ The people here talking about the aggressivness of the U.S. don't seem to have much perception of the last couple of decades. We've been responding to situations, not creating them. And we'll always choose negotiation over fighting, democracies are run by people who hate military casuaties more than about anything. We do -not- want to fight if we can help it.

For the swedish speaking/reading part of this community:
Läs Robert Fisk's artikel på aftonbladet, mycket tänkvärd tycker jag.

I'm sorry, but of all the bullshit posted here, I am having the hardest time believing that ANYBODY spend ANY time bragging about hosting Fisben as an exchange student (unless his guardian was some kind of a pathological liar). I could believe it if he said they were trying to slip poison into his food maybe, but BRAGGING??? No way!!!

Slidar, i was with you for most of that...but you do realize that it is usually illegal to shoot someone here in the U.S. but it happens many times a day, regardless. (So the notion that retaliation for crimes is the only deterrent is at the least a bleak prospect)

DAMN! You CANNOT even IMAGINE HOW I WANT TO KILL ALL OF YOU!

Agreed Gore. What would it be like if there was no reprocussions for commiting crimes tho? I don't think we could find all the terrorists in the world and rehabilitate them.

Romka v MUME ubjem vseh etih urodov !!! MUHAHAHAHA

Discussion pointless, I quit. and ... 10% hardworking people is pathetic and i dont study any french romantics you piece of shit. I study: php, C, C++, SQL, HTML and other computer shit. SO shut the fuck up. I am just educated in other areas too, not like those 10% hard working fuckers that know nothing besides their jobshit. *spit*

Agreed Gore. What would it be like if there was no reprocussions for commiting crimes tho? I don't think we could find all the terrorists in the world and rehabilitate them.

*worship* Fisben. You are like god or something or better, like god's god. I wish we could all be as good as you. Can you walk on water? I bet you can!! Can I lick your boot sometime? Nah, I am not good enough for that. I KNOW!!! Let's all get together and start the Church of Fisben!!! omygodomygodomygodomygod---I LOVE YOU FISBEN!!!!!!!!!!

I can walk on water.
(when it freezes)

Thank you all thank you all *bow*. U can just donate shining for me and ... uh and perhaps scrolls ... but only blue ones! And a roomname "The mighty Fisben's church" would be ok.

Seriously I dobn't give a fuck about any of you smart unknowns, you just have no balls! At Vorlin shows his name when he arues with me. You just hide, in yer mommas pussy. Go away stupid ones!

Fishben, your a joke. Back in your parents basement now little man. Your 15 minutes has been depleted.

Seriously, Fisben, do you think your bad exchange experience could have anything to do with you being an egocentric, arrogant, zenophobic fuckhead? Nobody has to "hide" when they argue with you. You're nothing. You're not scary. You're not mean. You're not tough. Why would somebody hide? You're just a candy-ass punk geek comin' through loud and clear.

cow