Well what did you expect? If the v+ said this was ok, you'd have people spamdying their no-good legends, giving tons of wps to wp horny friends. You could help friends xp by letting them spamkill you. oh we were just dueling, fair fights etc etc.

Hello? What keeps ppl giving wps to wp horny friends without breaking the 'fixed fight' rule without entering closable or blocking exits, HELLOOOO?

eh evryone but not you Stormblast - hmm demote all gods

Join with me, Stormblast. "The level one" club!

This sucked. Demoted for nothing *stare*

Nah , 46 levels down the drain.
Hehe

Does the bye mean you're quitting mume? I've heard that before! Other than that - rules interrace says everything you need to know about this log. Like the rules or not - play by them like everyone else or suffer things like this...

You don't think that's a tad easier thing to do now Rogon :)? Like the rules or not - play like everyone else or suffer things like this... I am glad you'll never ever have to feel a temptation for a 1:1 fight, my favourite bigmouth *grovel*.

Well wouldn't want this to happen even to a NSLer (much less Stormblast :/), I actually liked Olorion and now he gets demoted FOR BEING FAIR? ohhh the irony :(

Hmm reminds me of a log between Nazgum and Alweon, which was just as 'fixed'
as this one. Why the different rules?

Members of opposite races cannot collaborate, communicate, or otherwise interact in any matter but as supreme, utter enemies. Fight or flee. You can taunt your foes, but you cannot facilitate their life in any way or kindly kindly chat while you sip tea together.

I think its shitty u cant have a fair fight nowdays. Its just about traps, cause if u dont, they will flee, and if not overkill its hard for warrior to kill some else, solo, if u do not really rock.
And i think whities should be able to duell, without gettin evil (same for darkies but other way).
Hum Hum Hum......
Think about that Dain, mighty god.

Why? WHY? What fucking day is it today? The greatest troll and the best bn, both lvl 1 now... fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck, fuck u dain, really, trying to take away all the fun from mume?

Well rules interrace says that you have to fight to death, this is exactly what we did, if we hadn't picked or blocked 1 of us (likely me) would have ran. So basically we did everything to whack eachother, no trading of info or eq of any kind. Funny how we could have arranged that offline, in a lab... Or just so that Olorion opens door and enters, blocks pegs. I enter, check pegs (blocked!) and understand: I have been offered a fight to death, and accept it by picking the door shut. I am sorry but if the last version is breaking the rules too, I should be level -500.

well everyone breaks that rule darkies flirt with magica on daily basis and i see no demoteing there

Trying to make a fair fight and get demoted..Fucking bullshit.. Shows what mume has become and why i quit. Well done Dain..

Dain, can you use a little discretion perhaps? A law so rigidly enforced so as to loose the sense of justice is not a just law, and cannot command the respect of law abiding men. (Meaning loosen up and read between the lines every now and again).

A unknown says far up that they are enemys and cant talk.
Read the book, Does Gandalf talk to a BN or not? (outside the gates)
Saruman is good?
And bns have 100% westron and therefor can talk to eachother.
Yeahyeah., I wont say bye since I dont know if I can stay away, tho it seems
to me that all the time your spend on this game (Game=have fun) is not worth it.
46 levels are to much to demote for such a lame thing.

if I run into a puke and he asks me to duel him somewhere 1 on 1, which has happened, I accept and we set rules then fight. I've done this with alweon and several people, being a roleplay game based on player interaction, I fail to see why this serves to be "cheating" in any aspect as long as the fight is "fought" by both sides, with the intention of each person to win, not one person trying to spam die to the other. This is like demoting the 10 darkies standing down tunnels at bree for yelling at the pukes how many they are, and to come charge, because the pukes "accepted" a "fixed fight". In both cases lies, porting in friends, escaping, whatever is ALL possible. As with many rules in mume I will continue to disobey this one because I think it's bullshit, along with not being able to return linkless kills equip, and the one account rule, and if I get demoted, then fine I am not wanted. Huge comfort to Stormblast, this is just bullshit.

Trying to make a fair fight and get demoted..Fucking bullshit.. Shows what mume has become and why i quit. Well done Dain..

Lochdale's comment was so pretty damn sharp that I'll have to repeat it: A law so rigidly enforced so as to loose the sense of justice is not a just law, and cannot command the respect of law abiding men.

I want to break the rules, and i want to walk away with it. If i cannot, i shall whine.

I think the majority of unknown comments are p(rogon), they just sound too much like the typical bullshit that falls out of his mouth.

So according to the rules when I am at bad hps and cold mana, but can fireball, then when I see a healthy dwarf, I should cast the mana on him and die in a cleave? What would be the smart thing to do? Run, regen and go back and fight or just run. Now when I and Olorion meet, we can start that fabled caster-dance: enter, cast, opponent leaves before hit, casts, you leave before hit, enter, cast... (repeat 10000000x). The smart thing to do (to get actually some1 killed) is to create a situation where we both dare to fight and cannot bail out. I can lure, and Olorion might enter a trap. But what if he enters and knows it's a trap? Fixed fight?

What do you expect from Mume these days? You got a bunch of high level gods who don't really play but make key decisions that affect everyone. Mume has completely changed 100% from when I started. Instead of having fun 3 on 3 fights now, all you get are lab versus lab with the outsiders hiding in Bree. Rangers now do the work of what real legends use to do. What was fun for me was always the fight. When you read a log do you really care if someone spamdied? It's always cooler to see what people were doing, the actions they performed that either made or broke the fight for their side. This includes one on one fights like the ones above. SO fucking what if one of them gained WPS, the list is completely buggy and has been a joke ever since 'the fix' was made anyways. I'd rather see 100 Stormblasts and Olorions then .1 Maedhros or even Dain how he was acting in this log (normally I like Dain, but he seemed to have a bug up his ass for sure at the time).

well Dain is moron , he will not change

Tho you have to admit 'fixed' fights are anti-rp. :P

Anti-rp? Fuck the rp, this is a fucking game, we play it to have fun, whether it's a roleplayish or no... if ppl are being demoted for trying to have fun then this is fucking retarded...

Fixed fights anti-rp? How so with 2 known opponents? See: King Theodeen (Sp) v. Witch King.

Mume isnt about having fun. ITS ABOUT WINNING A WAR!

Ofcourse Dain was an absolute asshole to demote both of u. I wouldnt have been able to do that, and i thought i didnt have a heart.

Dain has made several irrational decisions in the time I have been on MUME. He's done many great things for the game, sure, but a false sense of power is obvious in this log on the part of both gods.

It was Earnur last-king, not Theoden. If you're thinking of the fight I'm talking
about. At that, the Witch-King cheated. Anyway: (1) All you experienced players,
EVEN YOU, Nazgum, know that this is illegal. If we don't enforce this rule,
how are we going to enforce any rule? What would we say to people who say
"You are just busting me because you hate me, but you let X break the rules
because you like him." (2) Just because there are elements of planning
in some fight situations (like shovel raids) doesn't mean that OBVIOUS cases like this
one aren't illegal after all. (3) If we didn't have an anti-dueling rule,
there would be all sorts of horrible possibilities of abuse: cross-race
equipment transfers, fixing war points, etc. etc. Of course you will say that
we could tell the 'real duels' from the 'fake duels', but how easy and objective
is that?

I agree that this is total bullshit, I'll make a post about it and see what happens. This brings up another point of having a 'duel' command where 1:1 people can chalenge those of the opposite side. We'l see what kinda response it gets after this:P

I already spoke with manatark and various others as immos and said i think what they did was illegal. no reason why i should have to do it as unknown too :) This was only so interesting tho. cheat, die. case closed. move on.

Its weird... the Gods most certainly have a different way of thinking, i mean.. they do changes to MUME that NOONE likes, and even tho everyone that plays mume (and therefor are the ones that the changes are made for) complains on em, they dont remove em... Take for exampel, RANGERS, NEW WPSYSTEM, TROLL-OB, ETCETCETC the list is longer then my grandma's beard! Jesus, listen to the players
(-shadrach cuz he think its a rl-war), morons!

Remove WPS and one of the main drawbacks to a duel has been removed. As for rule breaking, Mume as *always* been completely arbitrary as to when rules are enforced and not. How many logs do we see of coinlooters and actionfleers who are not punished, and yet others are demoted for rules not even made rules yet? As for dueling, am I gonna get demoted tonight when I go to Bree and yell out a challenge to fight the leader of the white pukes in combat if he dares show his warty hide outside the gates? Is doing that unrpish?

Petrel: Your logic in dismissing objectivity in the enforcement of laws is intellectually untenable. Brightline or strict liability laws are dangerous in an open society and are often fundamentally flawed. They are reserved only for those instances of extreme conduct or when the protected class or interest is of such a sensitive nature that due process civilities and inherent rights are disregarded ( an example would be statutory rape statues which impose strict liability). In a community of mume's size, rules must be obeyed but there is still room for subjectivity and the utilization of common sense. A just law demands no less.

I do not mean to pontificate, however, the sort of reasoning employed by Dain bothers me and is not logically defensible unless we agree that mume is and always will be entirely arbitrary and Dain just gets his kicks this way.

Ack! Please fogive me for the dodgy spelling but I am a dreadful typist and functioning without the benefit of a secretary or a decent spell check.

dunno about you lochdale.. but how can people with english as their native language, typo and write with incorrect gramma... if i did that (often) in swedish i would kill myself *nod self*

So if i hit a puke and he says - dont call backup, lets fight 1 vs 1.That is illegal to?

Torment: Please point out the mume.net logs which contain proof of actionfleeing
and actionlooting and I will take action on them. Or, better yet, explain to
me how to recognize the evidence of trigger activity. I have never used
anything but raw telnet and I don't know what a trigger looks like on the log.
This is a completely non-sarcastic offer. Respond by mumemail if you like.
As for arbitrariness, possibly you think
we really ARE gods and know everything that goes on. That's not so. We
know what we trip over, what we have been alerted to watch out for, and what
can be found out simply. But we would not be LESS arbitrary if we ignored obvious violations
of clear rules by experienced legends. Furthermore, if detection of an offense
is highly uncertain, the only way to deter the offense is to make the cost high for
those offenders who are detected.

While I will miss both Stormblast and Olorion (who provided many of the most interesting logs here), I passionately disagree with Lochdale. He calls for "subjectivity" and "common sense." However, he fails to define those words for us. So I pose this question: whose definition of "common sense" is supportable by the "law?" In this case, the "law" is MUME's rules, not Brightline or strict liability laws. To try and take this debate outside of MUME's own rules and regulations makes little sense; after all, how many time do you recall issuing the command cast 'fireball' *troll* in real life? With this stated, Dain's actions are clearly those that fit within the guidelines of MUME's rules. You don't have to like it; I don't. However, to say it's not logical? Well, that's a matter of interpretation. And Dain's interpretation is as valuable as Lochdale's own.

Unfair Demote! well.. i can't say much but for Stormie... are you really going to quit? i mean... you were one of the best bns out there... i can't belive they demoted you for such a stupid little thing, Orlorion & Stormie Big comforts hope to see you both back at Mume. this time just know that some rules are stupid, you as player can do NOTHING about it... if they start about demoting. so sorry so see this happen =(

Skojardu: I don't think saying 'don't call backup' is illegal in itself. But
if you proceed along those lines, eventually you get to a point where it IS
illegal. (1) Elf says 'don't call backup' (2) Troll says 'no, I won't, I promise'
(3) Elf says ok let's find a secluded spot (4) Troll says how about the Hunter's Hut
(5) Elf flees (6) Both of them go to the Hunter's Hut (7) Elf says WAIT - let me sleep
for mana .... all right, by this time it is well over the line. I think it went
over the line somewhere around (3) or (4).

blahablaha, will you ppl stop speaking marsian? the rest of us are from earth you know!

hummmm.. imo, that elf and that troll choosed to play that way to increase the fun of the game. If they succeed, woho yippiiii, dont ruin the fun for em. hmm...... i stop playing mume, but im still like the most active mume.net'er, something has gone wrong! VERY wrong! im fucked, the Salmon is eating my limbs, the Fox is chewing my penis and the old lady is yelling avföringsord to me!!! noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo my god, eller vááááááAAA```???

fuck you dain, thats all i got to say about that. oh, did i mention fuck you? i know that doesnt sound very intelligent etc etc, but its the best thing i can think of. fuck you.

i have one thing to say.. and its AAAAAAAHAHAHAHHHAH.. and i would like to continue laughing in my comment, but none would appreciate it.. so i will say this instead. dain is such a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooser, pathetic.. if dain came to my home to sell cookies, i would pee him in the face=P *rambling* but he is still a jackass.

Any1 knows why haggen was punished?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! Not Stormy!

shity day

I don't get it! I'm just a dumb trollie, but I don't friggin get it! How many times havn't pukes and darkies been yelling for 1 vs 1 fight, and tried it out ?!? Is this the result of the warlord thingy ? I say remove wps from the game, and it'll be a lot more fun again.. Think of all those traps and groups just for the lousy wps out there.. - Toe - (ready to be flamed)

Where to begin? Edvard: Please proof all of my work for grammatical soundness. Further, if you can check on its substantive value then all the better. I bow to your intellectual prowess as evidenced by your recent comments "..Fox is chewing my penis" etc. Bravo.

Gonfor: You have more to offer then being Dain's apologist. Mume does not exist in a vacum. To suggest otherwise is defies common sense. We all bring other factors into this game. I was suggesting that Dain introduce a little subjectivity (read reasonableness) into his decision. So, what is common sense, what is subjectivity? What is reasonableness? Well, they are obviously fluid as reasonable people will differ. It is, however, the cornerstone of any open legal system that such differences are allowed. The law cannot be so rigid as to prevent any mitigation or alternative interpretation. My point? Defending Dain's actions by stating that laws must be strictly enforced and cannot be arbitrarilly applied is both inaccurate and flies in the face of common sense. Laws allow the arbitrator to exercise discretion and common sense. Dain did not in this instance and to my mind has unjustly demoted two players.

Haagen was not punished. He was pissed because autoflee didn't save his life
as he thought it should have. So he asked for a demote to level 1. We didn't
do it. So he suicided.

This game is going down the shithole fast. Everybody go buy Phantasy Star Online and play with me. My big breasted newearl needs a buffer

Lochdale, please note that as soon as we satisfy one set of critics by being
less "rigid", another set, or maybe the same set, will flame us for "bias"
and "partiality" and "favoritism." It's not my role to comment on Dain's
choice of punishment, but I will tell you the sort of things I think about
in discussions of punishment. (1) Is it a new rule which people aren't
familiar with yet, or an old, established one? (2) Is the rule ambiguous in
its application to the case, or is it very clearly written? (3) Was the rule only slightly, "technically"
violated, or was it smashed and torn up in pieces? (4) Was the offender
a newbie, or an experienced player who knows very well what the rule is?
(5) Does the offender have a clean record, or are there past offenses?
(6) Was the rule broken "in the heat of the moment," in passion, or was it
a calm and deliberate decision?

Petrel they would be excellant criteria upon which to judge an infraction. It strikes me, however, that Dain utilized none of them.

I don't use a client either Petrel, but in a log where you can see the user entering in commands and suddenly grabs coins first while not entering in a command, pretty obvious. Any labswede will undoubtably have more insite on this subject than I will.

I don't know what to say to Lochdale. He calls for greater recognition of differences of opinions yet when someone's (in this case Dain's) differs from his, he cries "Unfair!" This was my one and only point. If you try and put forth the idea that "different opinions need to be considered" and at the same time say Dain was wrong, you're either being ignorant or a hypocrite. In other words, you can't say you want your opinion to count while saying that Dain's is wrong and shouldn't.

In most real-life legal systems you'll see a wide range of penalties, for instance, a particular crime might draw a sentence of anywhere between 5 and 20 years. That range is there so judges/juries can weigh the -specifics- of the crime against the law and decide how severely the law was violated. There isn't any doubt that what happened was illegal by Mume rules. I -strongly- feel that demoting to level 1 was -way- overboard. That would have been just, IMO, if they were trying some sort of equipment or wps scam, but to totally destroy two high level characters because of a duel? I think taking 5 levels off of each would have been enough to make the point: don't set up cross race duels.

Lochdale was making an informed judgement, whereas Dain seemed to just have a judgement. If Dain had taken into consideration some of the factors Petrel had mentioned above and decided that the situation still called for immediate level 1 demotion, then fine. From the log just looked like he was gonna nuke em both no matter. Maedhros and his crappy bad cop routine was also totally uncalled for, especially from him being a retired god. Sends a message to all the new players of 'hey, look what dicks Mume gods are!'

That really sucks, being demoted 40+ levels. This is a pretty obvious showing of the "Gods vs. Players War." I really don't know what to say. I almost burst into tears after reading what happened to you guys, that plus what happened to Lothar.

I think demoting them both to lvl 26 would have been enough, it would have made the point.

I think Lochdale was stating an opinion and not an informed judgement. Unless he's had some conversations with Dain where he's discussed this issue, he doesn't have the whole story and therefore can not make an informed judgement. Don't get me wrong; I feel bad for both Stormie and Olorion. But I won't go to the extent of saying Dain was wrong to do this especially when the existing rules were violated. You can disagree with his actions but to say his opinions are wrong and someone else's are right makes little sense. If we set up a committee to investigate each instance of cheating there would never be any penalties handed out. Everyone caught cheating can find someone who'd buy his story and would be willing to support and defend his case. So we'd end up with constant penalty gridlock. It's like Petrel said; change the system and you'll the same number of people complaining.

Gonfor I was responding to Petrel's initial posistion that rules did not provide for mitigation not on the validity of differing opinions. As Petrel later pointed out, Mitigation is the key but with brightline application that cwill not happen which is fudamentally unjust. Lastly, I would value Dain's opinion (action) had he put any thought into it.

It's a pity your sanc dropped. I thought it looked like Stormblast was trying to use communication tactics to whack a puke. There isn't much chance for a bn to whack someone like olorion in open space, especially when you start off hot, I thought Stormblast chose the best option available to him (at that time), to try and whack the overpowered puke mage. Oh and Lochdale, quit with the law jargon, it's a bit pretentious, unecessary and pointless for a page that is mainly viewed by people who's first language isn't English.

or even old enough to legally buy beer!

I think if this was a real fairly fought fight (which was set up), Olorion wouldn't have started quaking BEFORE the door was locked. Imho that means "Olorion decided to kill Stormblast, outside of the arrangements they might have made." I know for a fact that Stormblast is Estonian, and Olorion's in Sweden. I see no way for them to have made previous plans except through yells, which is exactly how it would be done (I'm assuming, again). Petrel is the wisest one here it appears, and I believe that the decision to reinstate or keep the punishment where it is should be his, and his alone. From the log it appears Dain instantly trans'd 'em after it happened. I'm just curious as to how they would "know" of a fix'd fight unless they were watching to begin with. And no play would "cheat" (as it was put by the people) if they knew they'd get caught. I see what happened as a "trap" by Olorion, with a small "I've got no mana" segment by both. It'd be the same thing if I was fighting a puke and all of a sudden decided let's just chat a bit while I regen mana. Does this mean I deserve demotion?

Sorry Granvil but given some of the utter tripe posted here I think I'll continue to pontificate ad naseum.

Explination on Rule " Enemy interaction " ...

Ainu says 'when you have an enemy in yo face you kill him or flee like a
fruit carrying a basket full of salad and then fucking prance along the
fucking streets of gh IN YOUR FUCKING TIGHTS, THINKING YOU ARE AS WELLENDOWED
AS DAVID BOWIE IN THE LABYRINTH BUT I GOT NEWS FOR YOU YOU FUCKING ARENT'

Even Californias three strikes your in for life system, seems just in comparison to this.

I find Lochdale's use of the english language enlightening.

This mud is about having fun, but it isn´t allways Your fun... Like in this case it was some kind of twisted Ainu Fun. Must feel good to type 1 row of text, and se how someone else looses days-weeks of work. Bah, this sucks... Allthou i think Olorions grades will be better after this.

I'm still gonna kick you in da nutz!

If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times..well I've never said it but I will now, Ethar your a good kid.

dain is a mume bully, plain and simple, BUT he has every right to be a mume bully since he is part of the holy few who can do crazy stunts like this. dain has always been a hard ass every time i dealt with him and he will continue being a hard ass long after i leave mume. the day people like dain retire and leave mume the game will be better to play. on the flip side, LOL olorion. glad it was you who lost those 40+ levels. LOL

Nod Ethar.. very refreshing to have some intelligent debate..all be it about an *elf* and a *man*! ROFL
When I read this, the first thing I thought of was the 3-4 night consecutive fight Ethar and I had. Fight.. yell.. fight.. yell.. run off.. come back next night same spot.. do it all again. We each stopped several times to make sure the other wasn't experiencing lag, thus interjecting 'common sense and reasonability' into the situation. I guess by Dain's standards, we should of just waylaid each other.. despite the fact we were enjoying the encounter and being 'fair'. *shrug* It's most likely a tough job for the gods..so I will differ from bashing them, however, it does seem a bit ridiculous.
__Lobster

Thanks Lochdale, it's high-time we got at least one other person who can talk about the third grade vocabulary. I kind of got a little sick of comments akin to 'You suck', 'He sucks', 'fuckoff', 'moog', and 'blinth.'

Thanks Lochdale, it's high-time we got at least one other person who can talk about the third grade vocabulary. I kind of got a little sick of comments akin to 'You suck', 'He sucks', 'fuckoff', 'moog', and 'blinth.'

Nod Kriel, nod Lochdale and nod Ethar. Sadly though I don't think I've once encountered a situation where I've managed to say something poigniant enough to make someone in authority change their mind about a decision, but I would urge Dain to at least reconsider his punishment. If for nothing else than to promote the playing style of someone like Stormblast.

Sorry guys I was ramming my cock between my mother's legs and my son/brother started demoting people for no reason. It will never happen again, I promise.

All your base are belong to us!
You have no chance to survive make your time.

Plain and simple bullshit, almost as bad as me gettin listed for blocking the door
on some puke, you worthless terd's for gods.

I'm just happy I have a forum to waffle on :) Makes the work day go a lot faster. Also, I really liked ppl of Stormblast and Olorion was decent nsl (+Magica). Dain's application of the rules seems unduly harsh and patently unreasonable, border on the bizarre.

Wouldn't it have made more sense for Dain or Maedhros to maybe do something like telling both of them "You might want to read rule interaction before continuing what you are doing" or something? Mume has a bad habit of having rules that are neither clear nor concise and oftentimes confusing and rarely enforces. In situations such as this, doesn't it make a lot more sense to warn the person before executing the death penalty?

did olorion get puneshed?

This shit is funny when u are stoned...comf stormie though

when i first started playing this mud more than one year ago, my first experience after leaving grey havens was not knowing which way to get back. I spammed east a little and got to A scarred pit where you all know that 2 thugs load. *Stormblast* came in ,that far west ,and whacked my level 3(which was amazingly high from my point of view) butt. I didn't even know what happened. I have run into stormy so many times in the past now and i always remember this. Dain has unjustly demoted one the of bravest, most berserk chars that i have ever had contact with *comf stormy*. I never knew olorion but comf to you to. My first char was gwydion btw if any of you remember him. back about the time of the old silverfang *wave*

Damn, someone stop Lochdale, hes going to waffle ad naseum!! Shame I missed this whole thread by inadvertantly not reading this page for some time, thems the breaks I suppose. What I think we should do is start a discussion regarding the dissonance of harmony....DING DONG!

What do you expect when management is 99% people who don't play and don't care about playing? Maehdros will probably have a woody for weeks.

Petrel claims that if you bend the rules, you seem biased or unfair to some parties. Well why don't you demote all the players like this? MUME duels have been going on for a while, and the one Inghraz mentioned of Nazgum and Alweon seems no different from this one (he even admitted it in this comment forum). Why do their levels remain? Face it, the gods ARE biased since no-one would want to demote the infamous Nazgum.

this is total bullshit, see how much time and effort turns to shit because
some geek has had a bad day, fuck. So what if they talked or somthing? I have
never seen such bullshit on mume, and thats saying a lot

What a BULLSHIT DEMOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All I have to say.
BULLSHIT DEMOTE
>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<>>> BULLSHIT DEMOTE <<<

Haven't had time to read all of the comments but I will later. A huge *comfort* to Stormblast. I did enjoy trying to fight you 1 vs 1. Even if neither of us ever died I think. You are a rocking player, and this was taken out of all proportion. If the gods were snooping you, they would have been able to tell that you were both trying to win the fight. So that means noone was cheating really. If your sanc hadn't gone down, you probably would have won. If it's about wps or eq than the punishment could have been: minus lots of wps and all eq from Olorion (the winner). You already lost xp, eq and wps so shouldn't need more punishment. -40 levels for talking crossrace WITHOUT giving away any info and then trying to kill the person you talked to?! Sounds rediculous from every perspective. Lots of killers talk to their victims before killing them. Does that mean they cheated? No. It looked a snap decision from Dain without looking deeply into the fight.

I agree with Torment, their attitude is what pisses me off the most.
Maedhros is obviously getting a hard-on out of this. How sad.

HOLY CRAP WHAT THE FUCKING MORON IS DAIN?! I fucking wake up in the morning and find out best troll and best bn ever level one?! Ok, Lothar case is another story, but this? Stormblast was one of THE bns, he's a great player etc etc etc, and demoted to level 1 for being fair?! Camoon, I even liked Dain abit, now he has turned into a total moron.

Seems to me that Lochdale should join some chat-channel or something instead of trying to talk on a logpage.

Of course, if there was ever even a slim chance of the management reversing its decision it probably evaporated with all the grade school name calling going on here. None of you are doing Stormblast or Olorion any favors by grossly insulting Dain/Maedhros/Management. If y'all don't learn to deal with authority figures any better than this you can look forward to life as a fry cook in McDonalds. Now that I've got that off my chest, I'd like to ask the management to look at this case again on its own merits, and decide for sure whether a demotion to level 1 was justified (not legal, not possible, but -justified-) in this case.

Lothar best troll ever what a joke

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! if this is cheating, then all i`v been doing on mume the past 2 years is cheating. i mean, check my latest log here, the fight with rza....

how not "FIXED" was that!?
i will miss ya stormie=(

1. Demote maedhros/dain for not knowing what a justice system is. 2. if THIS is a demote, noone of the players that i know that actively pk should be over lvl 5. 3. Before you demote someone to level 1 for something which hardly is illegal by mume's rules (unless u changed something without saying anything in the last 3 years) set fair sentences... Ppl TRULY setting up fights get less (i read on some board: confession of some1 using some IRC/ICQ to set up fights -> dain says yeah, i'll knock 10 lvls off him (which i have never seen tho)) 4.Breakdown of why this fight isn't illegal...
4.1 RULE: mume should not be played by bots.... 4.2 OPINION: if you see someone, you (try to) react in an IC fashion (by reading this, i have concluded that yelling something like: 'hey stormie, long time no see? how's it going?' should get u demoted to lvl 1...) 4.3 OPINION: You fight/run like hell, but trying not to be a bot: u dont hit target as orc, or spell as mage... you devise some fiendish tactics to beat your (possibly/probably) stronger opponent, and 4.4 OPTION: you WIN! (or die)... which apparently gets u to lvl 1 if first yel didnt do it..... Ok I know this doesn't make sense... but i am no good at monologues... but i hear yells like the following: Lets fight in tunnels!/lets fight in day!/lets fight in/north/south tbad! whenever i am east of the brandywine... i do not see them all demoted, and i have also told ppl to stop fighting me, coz i really had to go home. Seems noone of the playing/pking characters have a right to be near hero. Last point... i can see that this log depicts something on the edge of a dodgy situation, but it still is active pk in the way i have always thought mume is/was... a game where u can hunt other ppl in a mud environment. This is deceipt from both ends, *man1* tries to convince *man2* to enter his trap, *man2* decides he has the better end, but, by deceipt of *man1* dies anyway... The ONLY way i can interpret this (for which i really want to thank Dain and Maedhraos from the bottom from my heart... i used to like this game, and it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling when ppl try to break and burn the good things in life, WITHOUT a proper reason/explanation) is what i have suspected all along... MUME management is not gonna rest till we all are using the fabled TricaBOT5.3 (or is 6.0 out yet?)... i.e. stop being human players, but just ppl spamming their 10 buttons...(who needs more, e/w/n/s/u/d/kill/open/close/get all corpse, rest set by actions) Do you really want every1 to play following one of the 4 players who would actually have to type something, just spamming assist and get all corpse? I don't see anything closely resembling proof that you try to keep the game a (valuable) addition to peoples life (apart from new zones that seem to be sprouting up everywhere, rocking 'n stuff). This specific action is 99% like something that made me stop playing football/soccer... I got tackled, broke ankle, said (actually without any insult) to the referee that he MIGHT have paid a bit more attention to my earlier whines, because this was totally uncalled for (amateur football, i.e. A GAME (mume used to be like a game, don't think many remember)... Anyway result: red card (50$ fine :)) AND 3 month suspension... (didnt even care about the free kick the offender got afterwards)

P.S. To any1 who actually read this... get a life, and come back to mume if they ever make a game from it again. P.S.S. if any1 feels offended by this please keep in mind that this is a game, and any1 not viewing it like that i shall scream 'n shout at till my vocal chords rip, without having any hard feelings (unless u become as uptight and annoying in RL about it aswell) P.S.S.S. Stormblast don't go... some ppl will still have fun... just try to get persons phonenumbers first (when on same side) and just arrange like that...

Management is acting like drug-dealers act: first set low price, let you addict, then suddenly raise price and say - "Hey! Now you are addicted, and I'll do with you whatever I want! *cackle*" What can I suggest? VOTE WITH YOUR FEETS! I can't - I'm addicted already *cry me*, but newbies - run while you can! Believe me, there are other muds where fair fights and arrangemented duels are encouraged, and ones who start spamkilling anyone without notification as Norsu-Thwag-like do get demoted in less than rl day. Maybe when their mud will be lifeless or filled with roleplayers only (which is same), they will start thinking about nuking such morons as Dain to lev 1?

WE ARE SEXUAL PERVERTS! PERIOD

nod Lochdale, nod Natash, and (forgot it) of course comf Stormblast! And... Petrel, seems you are one involved V+ who is still sane - what do you think about returning Stormie some of levels? To legend at least?

Oh yeah, sucky justice from gods is nothing new. Comf Stormblast.

To an earlier Unknown: I do indeed like Nazgum, and I would hate like hell to see
him demoted, so I HOPE TO HELL HE DOESN'T ENGAGE IN AN OBVIOUS DUEL WHILE
I'M LOGGED ON AND PUT ME IN THE POSITION OF HAVING TO BUST HIM FOR IT. Are
you listening, Nazzie? I will be really mad and hurt if you put that on me.
Please don't start dueling just so you can show what kind of independent-minded
orc you are who doesn't take any shit from management!! More later, but I would
encourage everyone to reread Vorlin's note above. Also, I don't detect a lot
of sentiment to go through mume.net looking for old duels to bust people, but
I would SUGGEST to Rza and others that you modify your behavior patterns. BTW
Manwe wrote the anti-dueling language himself. He is really committed to
it, independently from anything the rest of us in lower-middle management
think.

Spelar nog ingen roll vad någon av oss säger...

Det var helt klart fusk, men straffet för något som
faktiskt inte skadade någon annan, var extremt...

Att fuska, för att få en rolig och spännande strid är
inte så farligt... det borde inte uppmuntras, men det
här var lite snett enligt min totalt oödmjuka mening.

Who is Mike anyway. You sound only like a whining bigmouthed dork, like Grunge.

Hrmm these gods can do whatever they want and you have to live with it. No use bitching about it. Its like Raah in Platoon says - "you're tryin to cure the headache by cutting off the head" These gods have spent a shitload of time on this mud, and though you may not agree with all the changes they have made (god knows I dont), you people forget several things - 1. Its a game 2. You don't own the game 3. You are allowed to play this game for free 4. This game only exists because ppl like Dain spend time making and fixing things. - If you cant play by the rules, dont bitch when u get busted hard for it. Although this was an extremely harsh punishment for something seen as trivial by most, the rule is there to prevent crossrace cheating - so it must be enforced. Its one thing to say this was a bit harsh - but its just plain dumb to start cursing and telling the gods to fuck off, etc.

Nods, I'd hardly sink as low as telling management to fuck off, but it certainly doesn't mean that I should just idle when some 3 years of chardata has been erased imho unfairly and noone has bothered to listened to what I have to say about it.

OH SHIT duels are illegal now? You meed something with * and you HAVETO call for backup? Or what are you saying here? If i meet a bn and narrate for others not to interfere i'll get demoted? If that's the case go ahead... There ARE other muds out there if it really comes to that finally.

I dislike those kinds of fight, but since it hasn't been said before (=P) the punishment was waaaaaaaaay to severe. And for Dàin, he should maybe try to place himself in the players situation before making desicions like this. I thought I just read a note where you said you went sorta retired. Btw, Natash, didn't read yours, just too long =)

A game without players is a sorry game indeed, so you can't say it's ALL management and nothing from players. (Not that i'm saying management doesn't do enough, it does). I also remeber when a while back some ppl were nuked for eq-trade and Zhagrat was allowed to keep his main char, now how come stormblast was nuked to zero when he didn't even try to hurt anyone?

*rofl* some ppl in the management do need a real life.. or a wife
or whatever that would keep you happy(and away from mume)
If this was not a fake log... errr uuuuughhhh... Dain you're a ******** piece of ****!
And Maedhros before that i even respected you somewhat.

Ok, I will not bitch at the ainu's in this post but I would like to comment on the 'rule' of non-dueling. Why are duels such a big problem? Aragorn and the crazy uruk in the mines of Moria had a duel after the orc threw the spear at Frodo. Do you not think Boromir would challenge any opposing force to a fair battle of one on one... or Faramir for that matter? All throughout history of rl, duels are present wheter in the medeival times, to the swashbuckling times even up to modern day fights between drunk buddies. I believe this rule was made along time ago when the warlords list actually meant something, and for that time it was a good rule. But, as we all know, times change and so should some rules. The way I see it in the log, its as if Maedhros and Dain were perched like vultures waiting for a corpse to come out of the situation. What was the problem with using a little divine intervention in that situation? If you knew about the whole thing, why not just tell them BEFORE they made the mistake, that if they continued it would cost them dearly? I would like to see alot of changes brought about here that have to do with major concerns brought about by your audience, so perhaps we should consider a new version of MUME? Its way past due =p

Plllllleeeeease Gothmog... bring us formatting into the comments and we will pray to you every night before bed!!!!! =)

to Petrel, Vorlin's point was good but he also reckoned that the punishement was -way- overboard. And are you listening Nazie?, what's that all about, perhaps it's the ainur that should be listening as it seems most people prefer an enjoyable fight.

(I may break this up into a couple of remarks because of the inability of this setup to
do paragraphs.) On the question of whether Dain's punishment was too severe,
this is all the answer you'll get from me: If he had taken less than five levels,
it would have been a 'slap on the wrist' which would have sent a message that
we don't really care much about dueling. This would have been contrary
to the desires of the Implementor. If he had done more than reduce the participants
to level 1 (such as nuke ALL the characters in the account) it would have
been clearly too much. The 5-to-46 level range is one in which reasonable
Valar could have different opinions. One aspect is that we haven't had
a big dueling bust recently that I know of. With equipment transfer etc.
there are enough cases that you get a common sense of what punishment goes
with what kind of crime and what kind of offender. There isn't a recent
precedent for this, so opinions tend to be more diverse. But if you apply
the factors that I mentioned yesterday, it doesn't turn out all that well for
Stormy. It's a clear rule. It was clearly broken. The offenders are experienced
people and knew very well what they were doing. I wouldn't have mentioned this
if Gothmog hadn't put it in a news post, but Stormy doesn't have a
clean record either. So what are the arguments for clemency? Some of you say
that basically it's a dumb or useless or minor rule. But that's not how
Manwe sees it, so we can forget that one. Some of you say that basically
Stormy is a cool player. I have no reason to doubt this, and his own reaction
to this case has been very honorable as far as I have seen; he hasn't been
cursing Dain and spamming people. But unfortunately we have busted a lot of
cool people in our time :-( To me, the best argument for clemency is the
argument that communication between gods and players had broken down over
the dueling rule. Players got the impression that we thought it was an unimportant
rule and wouldn't enforce it, to the point of posting dubious logs here on
mume.net. Now this comes as a huge shock to people. The argument could be
made that we in management should have written a news post saying "WE REALLY MEAN IT
ABOUT THE DUELING RULE" and put everyone on fresh notice. In retrospect this
looks like a good idea. Is this an argument for clemency in the present
case? Reasonable V+ might say yes or no.

(More) There is no rule against single combat between players. There is a rule
against setting it up in an openly collaborative and anti-roleplayish way, i.e.,
sitting around emoting at each other like trolls and orcs in the Cave!
p(Stormblast) wrote an account of what happened, saying that he and Olorion were
chasing each other around Tbad to no purpose and finally decided to settle
it in a locked room. (I don't know why Stormy thought he had a chance mano-a-mano with
a quaking *elf*, but what do I know about such matters?) Anyway, if, instead of doing what
he did, Stormy had
yelled "I TIRE OF THIS POINTLESS CHASE! I AM IN THE BAKERY IF YOU DARE TO FACE MY POWERS!"
or some such, then there wouldn't be a problem. Then Olorion could go over
there and fight him if he wanted. And if two other BNs ported in, that would
be his problem. (That's probably what happened to Earnur. He probably died
in the Minas Morgul bakery, if we only had the log.)
See, this goes to the whole point of the anti-dueling rule.
For the duel to work as planned, Stormy has to give Olorion trustworthy
information about the dispositions of Sauron's forces around Tharbad. No, there
are no other BNs or orcs around. Olorion doesn't have to worry about anyone
else, he can concentrate on Stormy. He gives Olorion this information face-to-face
on his honor as a player, basically. And that's what he can't do.
That's the difference between a 'duel' and
a 'trap'. If you take out this element of collaboration, then you're ok.
If Olorion bellows "I, the champion of the elves, demand you leave Tharbad!" and
Stormy yells "The rest of you f***ers stay out of it, his loot is mine!", they
may get their single combat to the death if they want. But there's always the
chance that one of them is trapping the other. And when they take the extra step
to eliminate that chance by
giving that personal assurance as a player that no, it's not a trap, it's
an honorable duel, that's where they go over the edge.

I wholeheartedly agree with most of what Petrel wrote, but you go way too far in defending Dain's judgement (but that is to be expected). a) This was a minor offense. b) such hard punishment has been delivered afaik in quite extreme cases of *cheating* and c) unlike actions or many other offenses, this didn't hurt the game but for those 2 players it rather contributed. When I read the log again I feel a bit sick cause it looks so damn nonRP etc, but since we got carried away and decided to finish what we started, we had hard time staying sober. So basically now I am an offender of the same calibre as Vaim, who created multiple accounts (although you get a reminder about it on login!) and lost 35 levels. And these are elf-levels. Petrel, think about it - nuking all levels is the harshest punishment a character can get, nex step is nuking account. Have I really done the worst thing there is to do on mume?

Hey Petrel! Welcome back!

also *comf* to stormie, it was a harsh penalty

It would seem that this issue has raised a lot of resentment, so for what it is
worth, I will give you mine, as it might clear a few things up. This formatting
won't help though: (1) Though you may not like that you cannot organise
cross-side duels, they are still illegal. (2) RULES INTERRACE is as clear as
you can ever get on this issue. (3) I had been watching Stormblast after
receiving a tip-off, another Vala (not Dain) was watching Olorion. (4) The reason
we didn't interfere until after the death of SB was because we wanted to gather
as much evidence as possible so we were absolutely sure what the two were
doing. (5) Stormblast "neglected" to include some preceding parts of the log
which show Stormblast standing around while Olorion went to sleep to speed up
the mana-regen - for myself that was THE worst point of the whole issue.
(5 AGAIN) So important it is worth restating - Olorion went to sleep in the
same room! This is not dueling acording to Witchking & Earnur or Fingolfin and
Morgoth - Fingolfin didn't go to sleep where Morgoth was standing to try and
even up the odds. (6) Dain was being kept informed of what was happening so
the decision was not a snap one - he should be getting the emnity, I have no
problem taking the flak. (7) Sorry if I came over as heartless, but
it is not often that you get such a clear case of abuse. Normally it is a long
tortuous process whereby most PCs get let off the hook because I am not
convinced of their guilt. (8) I am glad the log was posted if only because I
missed the end bit - that *Elf* who appeared was played by p(Elfy) and I had
to disappear to have a chat with her about behaviour. (9) We try not to play
favourites or ignore some cases but punish others - if it happens and someone
is there to witness it then it gets dealt with, but it is a roulette wheel
who gets caught and who doesn't - only the innocent have nothing to fear.

Stupid thing, if you hit enter without anything in the box, it shouldn't post.
Stormy, I don't think your comparison to Vaim helps you a lot, because Vaim
would probably argue that his was a minor offense too. He was pissed about
a death, so he wanted to log on an orc and insult a BN. But the 30-minute
software stopped him, so he had the "bright idea" of making a second account.
That's what it was about! Just so he could insult the guy! And we nuked him
to 1 for it, because we want people to know that we really mean it about
multiaccounting. //PARAGRAPH// I agree that 46 BN levels is a very severe
punishment. Who knows, Dain might even be having second thoughts. I don't promise
this, but I know from my own experience that it's possible. In the heat of the
moment, from the V+ perspective, you think, "What a cheater! How could he be
such a jerk!" Even when you don't want to demote the guy, you get mad at him
for putting you in a tough position. "I bet everyone is going to flame me now, and
I'm going to feel miserable myself,
and it's all his fault for breaking the rule when he knew better!" So you
really whack the guy. Then after
it's over you think about it for a while and you wonder if you really had to
be as severe as all that. Meanwhile a certain amount of post-morteming
goes on among the Valar, and it either makes you feel better or worse.
It certainly couldn't hurt if you were to ask Dain, in the same reasonable tone you
used here, the question you posed me in your last sentence. Of course
only Dain speaks for Dain.

Heh, I agree letting the dude sleep in your room for mana was a bit overboard. Also think if we had more fights like the one Petrel described, with people yelling challenges in RP manner, would make for a much cooler Mume.

Well.. i am glad i am not forced to take decisions like this. But could there be an idea if we changed the demote command a bit? Isn't it possible to just keep the character in Morgul Vale for some days, discuss the punishment, take time to cool down, gather facts etc before you nuke all his lvls away ?
The thing is that situations like this puts Dain/Maedhros in a lose/lose situation. Either they do as they are supposed to, and punish there and then, wo having time to cool down and think again, or they decide to let it go, and the character will keep on breaking the rules interrace.
Putting Stormblas and Olorion in Vale for a couple of days, while one discuss what to do with them, would be a better idea imho.
And Dain/Maedhros.. remember that it's better to go back on a hastily decision, than sticking to it just to proove something. Now giving them 26 levels back would take much more of a man, than it took nuking them away.
To petrel: Demasking cheaters is really, really easy, ask me online once, and i can help there:)
Voile.

Okay, -now- we are getting somewhere. First off, the sleeping thing was pretty ridiculous, you know damn well that's gonna draw major heat. And cutting it from the log... //paragraph// Yelling a duel seems a nice backdoor left open by the management here. Someone yells a duel, you decided whether it's a legit offer or not, and go from there. //paragraph// The sleeping in front of each other was not good, no doubt, and the 5 level demotion I mentioned above would be too light for that (blatantly flaunting the hell out of the rules), but I still hope for some middle-ground resolution to this. The most extreme punishments, IMO, should be reserved for those who cheat for gain. Unless there is more to the story than has been shown so far, that wasn't the issue here.

Just 1 Word to Dain -> BULLSHIT

wtf is the matter with you lochdale... did i complain on you? did i say i spell english good? go fuck yourself long and hard before i take care of it myself *lick ass*

The log is not edited, but starts at the point I thought would be even remotely intresting to see on mume.net. I have at no point tried to hide the fact that we DID get carried away, with Olorion sleeping in room, and I am ready to take reasonable punishment about it without whining, since clearly the management would have to be harsh on this one, so that they wouldn't lose face. Olorion at no point asked me not to hit him while speeping, he just entered and lied down, and imho that just means respect in a way - "He will not be a fool and hit me, for I'd just run and that would be the end of it. He will wait until I am ready to fihgt for death, for only them will he have a real chance of killing me."

I would appreciate the members of the management not trying to make things look like I've been hiding something, and the players here not swallowing every bait that is thrown at them. Hints about past violations is a joke, for everyone that has access to playerfiles knows that I have only a couple of offenses in the past, which I paid for and after that I have come clean, if you dont' count that fresh actionloot (on which one Arata commented that in his opinion was a laughable incident, not worth more than a presonal reminder or warning).

One comment: bullshit demote. 1 level: ok 5 levels maybe ok but not all levels
really bullshit.

I think SB's attitude on this issue has been pretty good and rational. Yes I can play the "he didn't show you all the evidence" card. I have to some extent but I was fully aware that in trying to edit down the log, SB didn't want to put in more than was completely necessary. However, IMO what was missing WAS important (the sleeping bit) and so I drew attention to it but I don't expect people to mind-read: it was important to me in terms of making a judgement on the case, but I would not expect normal players to look at it from the same angle. Therefore I am not accusing SB of hiding the facts to make a better case.

Now we get to another point here: why didn't anyone warn the ppl involved that they are doing something illegal and should stop immediately? Is it a good thing in it self to wait till things get out of hand and then get a harder punishment out of it? As far as i can understand from this the ppl here knew they were doing something a little over the edge, but what they did was rather fair, so they thought whatta heck, i'm sure if they had been notified and explained to they would not have done the same thing (the whole sleeping part etc) not then and not ever.

Shala, if they warned 'em ahead of time of the sleeping part then one could always come up with an excuse on the spot (Something I'm good at rl). But if they let it go on, and see the outcome, then they punish. It's pretty much all about "how far will you go, and when you fall back in line we'll get you"-type motives (Reminds me of an old story I read, I maybe tell you later). //paragraph// I do believe that the diplomacy being shown here is also an extreme credit to Manatark and the Vala. I've read every single comment, twice even, and still think the loss of 46 levels was a bitch much for Stormblast, and Olorion. Petrel's comment about "do you head that nazzie" is direct displays of favoritism which is being avoided...? Nah, more like a warning that he'll bust him for it even though he likes him. It's all a matter of opinion folks. Letting someone know how you feel isn't always a good thing. Hell, look in the real world. And on a lighter note... Olorion, even though I have an extreme distaste for you in the lab, you're one of the two people from NSL that have always made an attempt to help me when they could.

It was prolly vs rules, but demote to L1 was too hard punishment. Some -5(10) levels should be enough. Btw there should be some kind of demotion list where i want to se rule breaking -> num of levels to demote. Because whe it is isn't i like u i let u go and i don't like u i demote u to level 1. But sure it can be like i like u i demote u 1 level and i don't like u and i demote u 46 levels. And god can easy say, hey i demoted both for rule breaking. Here should be some kind of law-book !

Well i simply think that SOME gods SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No further comment on this.

You lose a level!
You lose a level!
You lose a level!
You lose a level!
You lose a level!
You lose a level!
You lose a level!
You lose a level!

Ohh nohhhhhh.
All god are very nice, glad, good guys.

You gain a level!
You gain a level!
You gain a level!
You gain a level!
You gain a level!
You gain a level!
You gain a level!

Hmm. All in all you SUCK

I know I don't have a life, but after rereading this whole thread for the 10th time, I think I know what and who gets the prize for the best line: "That's probably what happened to Earnur. He probably died in the Minas Morgul bakery, if we only had the log." Thank you, Petrel!

Hmm... i think you ate the demotes not for makeing a staged fight, but for regening around a lot, arguing about sanc, eat mushrooms and stuff... this is no "Come charge, we are 6, won't call", or "while the caster picks, we just fight a bit with the warrior and pretend not to see the picker"... this is much more - and for that you ate the levels (even if it is harsh, it is not what some people try to turn it into).

Berdo you know this is a log from 2001? I wonder if topic starter is still living to read it ;)