I'm beginning to hate stabbers. They can kill people by typing a single command and without having to fight, they're boring to fight against, they're boring to hunt, they get kills through other people's efforts, they ruin other people's fights, they make playing the game a constant spam-revealing, blackberry-collecting bore, they can walk into supposedly dangerous strongholds of their enemies like they live there, they make the game dreary and annoying to play for everyone but them.

I can't think of any other semi-popular game where just to stay alive you have to constantly type a command over and over again.

You're a competent whiner (maybe even more than me). If you dont like stabbers, what would you have in their place, if not nothing? Would you like the odds for successful stabs tweaked? Would you like the damage of stabs tweaked? Let's have some ideas.

I recently got stabbed by Estel. Sting and venom only got me to bad. I think stab damage should be upgraded a bit so this won't happen again. Or maybe venom should be upgraded so it would initially cause damage every second or so, so it would be impossible to remove it by spell.

What would I have in their place? Warriors or casters probably. At least you can see them before they insta-kill you. When warriors or casters are in the game, you can do things other than a) fight, b) move c) spam-reveal. You can do other things such as bind wounds, cast spells, close/open doors for people, talk, change around equipment, rest, buy/sell, write messages etc, all things that are part of playing the game.

When thieves are about, the game becomes a tedious, spam-revealing misery. Can you imagine LOTR if it had MUME-stabbers? There would be no singing in the prancing pony, everyone would be on constant alert checking under tables and behind the bar for assassins. Aragorn and Glorfindel wouldn't be able to talk when they met near the ford, they'd have to take turns looking in the bushes and up the trees for orkish stabbers. Gandalf would probably have been killed half a dozen times, stabbed in the back whilst lighting his pipe.

Whine Whine Whine, someone got stabbed dead. It's easy to avoid stabs I find it tedious to spam reveal, and I'm sure something will prolly be changed soon enough. The examples you gave are lame because LOTR is totally different to mume.

Well, whine whine...thieves DID excist in LOTR, they sneaked around stole stuff and STABBED people, so wtf you whining? for me its boring to play warrior...hit, bash, hit bash...nofun?
As for casters...they should be removed too because their dispels and sprays do uber dam on high level?? you are idiot man admit it!

(no "star" because i dont bother to log in)

What a surprise, the lame stabbers defending their 'class'.

Actuall i'd like it if stabbing would made a bit more realistic. So, make it a whole lot harder to stab someone , especially in higher alertness-states and make succesful backstab fatal for everyone.

Surely if it were more realistic a backstab would do about the same damage as a blow from a sword or a hammer. I don't see why just because the stab is from behind it should do more damage that it otherwise would do. 50 hp backstab anyone?

Done deal!

That arguing about it in LOTR against backstabbers was the best I've ever heard Zain.

Perhaps you could have an option in your account, to play with or without backstab. Different from other classes, a thief brings nothing to the others playing the game, just pain and annoyance. As I'm not a whiner, just a realist, I wouldn't care about thieves being close to safe if played in a certain way. The problem is that they are still the most powerful characters offensive too. For example I don't care about people like Lerian being close to nokill because of their wimpiness, as they are quite harmless if you enter a place where they could possibly be trapped. But this is not the case with thieves as they can enter all these places for an easy kill and then be more than safe.

The best would of course be to get rid of backstab in pk completely. Then the thiefclass would be about skills, as when for example Rasta plays. But I guess this is not an option, so making alertness paranoid work, fixing reveal and make the damage much less, would be things to do in the first place.

Oh no, but then some stabbers might get shown up when they have to use skill to get their kills, what would they do then?

You fools, cha a paranoid and awareness does have an effect it was proven today as Conspiracy was my witness. You guys automatically complain without even checking what your asking for.

As for skill being a stabber, whole different type of skill compared to warrior and caster who need each other to be effective, unless you have a fast link, which I know you ML guys have but more and more MUMErs don't.

The new trend is the smiting sneaker, close to warrior but sneaks. It does stab but removing that would cause all normal warriors to get sneak because it is overpowered too bla bla. And the cycle begins again.

I'll listen to most people who comment here but you Zain have done nothing in this game (I can't be sure though <disclaimer for all you flame dudes incase I wrong :P>), not even warlord a stabber. So I take your opinion lightly.

Snarp when was the last time you played a character that wasn't a thief? I.e. someone with less high per. I DID check how alertness paranoid works. Twice in a row I was backstabbed while being paranoid. It's all normal though, just another step in the making of a completely safe class for selfish people that are for no good. For each skillful thing you can do withbackstab, there are at least five boring things that are more common stabbers do.

You know you're on the losing end of an argument when you drag out the ad hominem attacks and the complaining about links.

What a poor reply, come on base your reply with some fact, 'I havn't seen snarp playing anything else so he can't have.' - Bad logic. I play warrior when I feel like it. If I had a guy to spam follow me and bob me when needed I would play warrior. I'm not a person who likes to die alot, do you remember my first orc warrior, spam died, was not very pleasent for me, thus I choose thief ahead of it.

As for stab being modified, I wouldn't have a clue if it will be. Judging by everyones complaining it is due for a change but some of the ideas here are too radical, -50hp stab won't happen-. Putting a cap on stab to 200 would fit me fine, I got no problems. I'm sick and tired of people complaining about stab and thieves in general.

I got a decently high lvl char, who can quite easily pierce a lvl 30 warrior dead without going below wounded.

DO something for yourself instead of hiding behind people who have done something, Zain. Typical reply from someone like you. Atleast, I'm half examining the problem ,however, you just write crap.

I don't see where I was hiding behind anyone, perhaps you could point out where I've done this? Probably not. You're not 'examining the problem' at all, you're just flaming people who disagree with you. Not that I'd expect anything else.

well, if you want realistic stabs then make 1/3 stabs kill you instantly if it hits a vital organ or neck or something? if you want REALISTIC without realizing ANYTHING about REALISTIC STAB?
whatever...sucky thread, i vote for removing the clerics as their harm and dispels are overpowered!

I think that stab realism should be as realistic as weapon damage. Stab shouldn't get preferential treatment.

Make the damage stab does percentual. Then noone will die to it and you might still stay around a fight if at low hps, and even fight a stabber. Let stab do 1/3 of hps and it'd be great!

I think scouts are the easiest to play class next to the warrior on MUME. Just look at fucking noche. He got to some great level on bree fnost gh and bm once again, and then had warlord for an hour. Just goes to show you, if even I made a scout, i could be a warlord.

They are definately the most present warlords on the list. check check it, snarp #1 :P

Like a .... really pointless whine thread?

Isn't the whole point of mume.net?

Ah, so that's why you like mume.net more than ER. More pointlessness! :P

More pointlessness? Neither site achieves anything, so I don't think either could be described as anything but pointless. However the pointlessness on this site downloads quicker.

Pointlessness, lol!

Heh, I'm back in my element: whining :) Ok, The problem with stabbers is that they kill the joy of playing - spam flush/reveal/search, move around, kill something... No fun left for PLAYING mume if a stabber is around, that bothers me.

the game's still fun. I was on bruise, and i completely and utterly wrecked thajuric (a scout) because he had shit eq. I had shit eq as well, but the fact that he isnt fast enough to dodge a smite might play well...

Lots of whine, little ideas on how to change it.

I don´t know if those who whines about playing scout have ever tried it (or atleast not in a very long time). I have recently been leveling up a bn thief, and that was no walk in the park, still at lvl 26 its hard to play it. Might be the fact that its a bn, but I had the same problems leveling an elf. This constant lack of moves makes it hard (zorcs doesn´t count). Without the great expiriance I have from playing both bn, and scout, I am 100% sure I would have died even more.

Sure there is a chanse for you to warlord on pure luck ONE TIME. But scouts what stays where and comes back after falling down are skilled players, no newbies having luck.

Try to get zorc scout 2. warlord...and i give you 1 bil USD Phantasm...aint so easy like everyone think.

That the backstabbers' movement is rather limited doesn't justify the fact that they bring nothing good to the game and only make it boring for others.

It is easy, Znakr, if you don´t think so, you´re just another newbie.

When I tried darkiestabber wimpstyle, I warlorded after 2 days just by running around moors stabbing and poisoning, and god damn that was boring. But nonetheless easy.

Sure Bagger, but not everyone has got the skills to do that. Belive it or not. You probably doesn´t notice it because.. sure you got it.

That´s what I said, Conspiracy lilla, if Znakr doesn´t think so, he´s just another newbie, which also means, that he hasn´t got the skills if his oppinion is that it is so god damn hard.

Haha, its quite fun seeing the stabbers panicking like crazy when we just Mention "remove backstab"... If we did, they would Have to play other classes, which they suck at! Stabber is the easiest class to play Without Any question! Who here hasnt warlorded a stabber?

Me!

Instead of just flaming or whining, perhaps it would be a good idea to suggest a few things. I know it has already been said, but tweeking cha alert could really even out the playing field. The lower alert modes could offer better bonuses in terms of, say, move regen or something like that, while paranoid could be tweeked in order to better pick up sneakers and stabs (better than it is now, I mean). This would provide players with more incentive to use the lower alert modes, and the scouts would still have their livelihoods, but it would also cut down on the need to constantly flush or search. By the time you're aware that there is a scout in the area with you, realistically speaking, it should be pretty difficult for them to backstab you - this would encourage scouts to make use of the element of surprise, which is what I always thought that the backstab skill implied.

If someone knows a scout is in the area and eats a stab they deserved it. While playing scout I have no more than a 5% success rate of landing a stab when I'm known to be in the area. I would rather see quake/sanc removed from the game. Judging from recent logs it looks like the whole "sanc/quake" tactic is overpowered also.

While the warrior and casters are whining why dont we remove a few more things to make the game even? Like the insanse amount of moves warriors get...and the insanely fast track that mages get for some reason.

As if anything said by ANYONE either here or on ER is going to make a difference...those in positions to make changes have already made clear how they want the game to be.

Instead of whining constantly about anything that makes it harder for people to kill why dont the whiners just adapt and learn to play differently? Or better yet, quit...

Previous unknown, you are right in one aspect - spamming a fansite is probably not as efficient as, say, spamming a MUME board, and even spamming a MUME board is quite likely not to work.

However, how do you or anybody know if the higher management made up their mind? There's a chance they don't even know that there is a problem, and then they need to be told.

There isnt a problem...the only problem is people stupid enough to eat a stab. Well maybe not stupid, just lazy. They complain because they would rather be able to just spam around and hit/bash or cast without fear of death.

As far as them making up their mind, people have been whining about stabbers on ER for months/years...and high-level gods have been known to read/post on ER. Make the connection...

High-level gods have been known to read/post on ER? Who would that be? Manwe once per real year?

By contrast, MUME boards are probably read by them quite frequently. Well, at least some MUME boards.

And yes, there is a problem. Stab damage of certain chars is a problem (350+ hps with Sting? someone needs to get real). The fact that alert and awareness don't do much because a stabber only has to be lucky once while his target has to be lucky always is a problem. The fact that if you don't move or aren't in a closable room you can't stop spam-searching even for a moment, is a problem. Being unable to track, search, pick a lock if a stabber might be around, is a problem.

I do not really have that big probs with scouts anymore, but look at estel. You just have to admit it's like redicilous how easy he kills over and over with sting and poison. Myself, Im paranoid, I spamsearch and never stand still when Im not in a closeable. So I learned pretty much of it now. BUT when they add arachnia also, it's really nasty. Lowering backstab damage to like 50 hps sounds like a great idea actually. That way would make warlording a scout challenging.

Yes, but would be unrealistic. You stab someone in the back, and you can easily kill them in one hit. To make it 50 damage would take 6 hits to kill a Shaman. 4 stabs to kill a little BN who is a weak little frail guy? Give me a break.

Cleaving someone's head extremely hard and shattering it should do even more damage then, according to your logic Kril.

Logics are different for most people, therefore an idea would be to make what is fun for all players decide, instead of someone's personal idea of how things should be.

I've got an easy solution... Make stabbers .au only, that way the swedes will hardly ever see them-> problem solved. Plus there's the advantage of making stabber only available to the group of players who generally die most often. That way if any swedes did find a .au stabber they could destroy it anyway.

Zain play BN thief and then whine. We all know that pukes are so overpowered and they whine and whine all the time.

btw less per -> more alertness and search pracs ?

BN thieves aren't less annoying than other thievers. It's just the upkeep of them all in all that is harder!

Give me a break Kril? They have bow, one of the strongest ways killing things in mume, AND backstab for sick damage of 250+, THE most powerful way to get kills in mume. And they can hide everywhere and be safe. With those facts, you can easily lower stabdamage to 50 hps and still be a good char. And with poison added you're going to be all right. I play scout atm, and I would accept stab damage 50 hps, cause in pk I use shoot and pierce.

50-100hps scout would be acceptable if scouts were given better moves while sneaking.

Eh im not really sure what you people are talking about. Ask diemus how overpowered he was when me and tiamat spammed him down easily.
thieves really aren't that hard to find and kill if you play correctly.

I love the way these whines break down. Stabbers argue against anyone who tries to tell them stab is overpowered, while comparing it to stupid things like 'knowing a thief is in the area'. Often, you dont know the scout is there until they've stabbed you. Tweak stab to lower the damge somewhat, because thrusting a dagger into someone's back is -not- going to be several times more deadly than being struck with an axe or a giant warsword. Overpowered backstab aside, thieves have BOWS which are the single most powerful weaponclass. Who gives a damn about smiting when an emb and some stips(chanted war for more) can deal 3x the damage in the same amount of time? Yeah, your defense blows, but it's not too great as a smiter either(some exceptions like bb/bms). Get a Heavy crossbow and metal cased bolts, and you'll do more to metal opponents than the blacksword.

Sting should not be eff vs anything(this goes for many other artifacts). It is not written anywhere that stabbing an orc in the chest with sting is any more lethal than stabbing an elf with it.
Dropping stab's damage by 1/3 would be good, because thieves would have to rely more on their other skills. Also, alert/per/aware might make a big difference if you have 95% aware and extremely high per, but my bear with 14 per, and 7 pracs in aware hardly ever dodged a stab. If moves are a problem,. choose stats that allow you to bob like some warriors do, or spam travel lore component spots.

Snarp: Drop the patheric "You're nothing" responses. It's not impressive when Ajax uses them, and it sure as hell isn't when you use them.

Lastly, I'd like to leave us all with an important message:
http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/00b9a680/463c5922

That is not a retard Sogard, its a person with the Down Syndrome. :@

Maybe alertness could be tweaked so you could have something like UberParanoid: protects you 100% against backstab but eats massive amount of moves when you walk to another room...

Sogard, you talk like you're PKhazdul, so of course Snarp is going to point out you aren't, and don't come close.

Sogard, how about you drop the whole; I know what I'm talking about thing, then.

Changing stab would effect players who arn't skilled, but sure as hell won't effect good, experienced stabbers. There are more than one way for stabbers to kill.

Then use it, because currently people rely on it heavily, which is why you have the breed of stabber who runs after stabbing someone to wounded. I haven't been stabbed since I played my bear a few years ago(excluding eating stab via sleep spell). I know you don't like the idea that I could actually know what I'm talking about, and that's your problem.

maxattack with pierce can be quite deadly for those who don't want to low defense of using a bow (a couple pracs for better flee is a must for anyone imo).

If skilled stabbers aren't going to be affected by a needed downgrade in stab, why're you against it? The change would hurt people at first, just like bob/dwarf changes did, but then they'll adapt, and learn to make use of other skills.

Unknown: So what would being pKhazdul have to do with my being successful on MUME or irl(I lack the free time to play muem 8hrs a day like some kids do, not that I'd waste my time that way even if I could)? Don't you find it a bit amusing when people try to insult someone's success as if they actually knew them, when they're several thousand miles away and will never meet the person outside of a game? :P

Havn't been stabbed, since then. Impossible, everyone eat stabs, avoiding stabs is impossible. I would prefer stabs to be somewhat like 200 hps cap (so only the highest lvls or so could stab that high), just to keep it in regulation with some caster damage.

Oh, and I believe unknown was just refering to your mume skill. It doesn't matter how successful you are in the real world, in this game.

Umm... backstabbers are overpowered? What about ML quaketraps (Gris & Co) killing 5+ legends with 2 casters? I'd call that overpowered but yeah, who knows.

Thieves blow and Estel retired. Problem solved!

Its deffinitly really crappy that some people can work hard to get a powerful character and be good with pking and all, and then some fool can get warlord just by sneaking around and stabbing you in the back and instantly killing you. stabbing needs to be toned down and i would go so far as to not even calling it a class, maybe just a battle option, its deffinitly unfair and takes the pride out of a good pk. also im appauled that snarp would say MUME is completely different from lord of the rings, without the since of being part of the world of tolkien i wouldnt find MUME nearly as enjoyable, and i think that goes for many others as well.

Drop backstab to like 100 samage max and give thieves encircle. ;)

with 10 second delay :P

Get rid of stab, or make it do not much damage, and replace it with bows that actually work like bows rather than just another melee weapon that happens to be interruptable.

Who the fuck says stabbers stab + run anyway... earlier when I was testing out new pracs I stood up crack and bashed saralonde 2X in a row (when he was trying bash me) and pierced him to hurt b4 he fled... scouts do more than just stab afkers, etc, and personally, if you want to pick on overpowered chars then pick on pukeclerics. The other day I went AFK in stonedoor fer like 5 seconds, come in to see that in that time Tutti had broken stonedoor and dispelled me fer almost 200hps... (like 2/3 my max in that age)

Fine, you guys win this arguement. Whoopie nearly everyone wants backstab removed from this discussion. Wow, backstab ain't going nowhere pals. I'm sorry, taht idea is too radical. Dropping backstab damage is most likely going to happen, I'd think due to most people whining, but your gonna be disapointed when there are still more stabber warlords than anything else.

A great way to stop the number of stabbers is to make it less appealing to less experienced players. That way you can get more to follow the leaders with the remove backstab arguement. It might have an effect in the year 2010.

Grisnat, we were just talking about that, there should be more scouts like you. Using pierce and bows, killing people that way is skill, stab is 0 skill. But lower stab damage makes you skilled if you stab an opponent and hunt him down with pierce or so. Stab+poison is insanely overpowered. But I acept it, just my opinion is it should be changed some. I don't think it will though.

Thanks Moortek... at any rate, stab + poison IS fucked. (another reason I put pracs into bash instead). Besides, bash is WAAAAY cooler. Have used stab + bashing + piercing + shooting to solo bearses - its loads of fun to be able to stand and bash as a scout... makes me feel less, errr, wussy...

ok just got an idea , i think it woould balance some things without dammage so much stabers as a class
dammage of the stab to depend of their aggro/wimpy (on ob like normal dammage) - i mean todays dammage - only on aggro/berzerk , if you wimpy - LESS.
i mean what we have here - char that sneaks/hide , do 250 dam with a stab ,usualy have around 15 wil , and is perfectly safe with its 130 def with orkish fang and black metal shield ... errrm , sneakers enter noc/bree safely , they fight with warriors with bow AND shield - not sure how that is possible , to use both tower shield and a bow buuut :)

This wont fix the always boring spam of reveal q
what i hate most in mume (after the mobrip).
For this i cant come up with anything :-(

Narlah, we tend to speak English on this messageboard.

I am sorry , zain , excuse my bad english.
As a matter of fact my idea will only affect warrior/scout battles , the other kinds - mages/clerics and other scouts will affect none ...

That would be like making spell damage be based on mood. not that I wouldn't mind having those pesky mages get less def when nuking me. :)

Best fix for stab atm is to be perma sanced! :p

I'd be more (or less) happy if a stab could take say, max. 90% of victims hits. Then the victim would know a stabber is around and have atleast a chance.

with venom/arach and critical in body - how long this chance will last urogh - 10 seconds or even 2-3 seconds more :)

well after having one of my casters stabbed during a fight with trolls and spam-looted (including staff) I have to agree with the initial post. I haven't seen a good rejoinder to the point that it simply makes the game annoying. There shouls perhaps be a stab in game, but not of the sort that it is likely to kill someone instantly. IN compensation for lowering initial stab damage, make thieves a little bit better fighters?

That's so very true, Narlah - if you don't play trolls only like I have recently done... :)

I dont understand what buggs you all. I have almost never gotten stabbed dead. If a stabber stabs me, I go wounded maybe high bad. So I unload 2fbs on him and he runs away *shrug*.

Nothing to be scared about. For me personaly I think scouts are fine the way they are.

OB: 69%, DB: 54%, PB: 74%, Armour: 3%. Wimpy: 100. Mood: wimpy.

21 lvl elf , glided with fang
now tell me - you have a char doing best dammage in game while having 138 def , very fast flee , and sneak/hide - thats with usual shield/fang plain eq, no they are not overpowered :)

mood will fix it damn it , they will actualy try to hit and will actualy receive hits ... i think
but lets count - 5 ob from iron , 5 ob more wtih fine gray replacing fgc , 5 ob if iron foced - hrrrm same story ...

You mean, db, not ob? Scouts can have some shit defense. I had Drakard stand still dodging my bear's bashes while he just pierced me to hurt and was hit once.

Never got the logic behind how a scout can dodge bashes so well, yet a bear with much more db and dex(and str to simply overpower the basher) can't. :P

dodging a bash also depends on your mood and at the same time your pb.

Anyway, I think most of you are nuts. The basic premise of backstabbing is to kill the oponent instantly and silently so as not to alarm others in the area. That is the basic premise with backstab in most systems, to get someone out of the way as quick as possible. Perhaps I could see a slightly longer delay in backstab, and a much shorter delay in reveal (which is almost useless atm since reveal and stab have approx the same delay.) But to lower the damage of stab? No, definately not in the name of realism.

Kril, in the name of realism, a good hit to the head should kill, as should a good hit to the body. In the name of realism, a hobbit should not be able to stab a troll higher than in the leg. In the name of realism, you should not be able to backstab anyone while you and him are both on boats on a river. Should I really continue?

Forgot the : in the name of the realism, you gotta be in boat's inventory to use it, and not the other way around.

When I cleave an orc I want it dead in one cleave, shouldn't I kill it in one hit then?! I think I should Kril!!!

Cmon stop nagging on Kril. I think he has got a very good point here! Backstab is to, as Kril said, to take out an enemy the quickest way very silent.

Longer stab delay is fine, but for god sake, dont lower the damage! I think its already low as it is. It should be raised. Atleast with unenchanted fang :/

Make 'reveal' work as 'watch'... you turn it on and keep watching (revealing) until you do something that interrupts it (start fighting, rest, etc.).

Maybe even make it possible to use this reveal while resting and sleeping (perhaps you could set traps before sleeping that would wake you instantly go into reveal mood if someone enters the room, sneaking or not).

This way you could be 100% safe if you cared about it.

But I'm all for lowering damage, and even removing backstab entirely. I don't care about it being overpowered or not, it's just an annoyance and the game would be better off without the spam revealing.

Seriously, what IS the sense of having backstab almost kill you in one hit?! I could easily do that to an opponent with an axe. Even worse damage then a little dagger. Stab=50-100 damage, and make it very random between that limit. Then there could be some skills to play thief.

>> Backstab is to, as Kril said, to take out an enemy the quickest way very silent.

Axes for me is taking out the enemies the quickest way possible, loudly.

If backstab's damage goes up with each level, shouldn't the damage I do with a maxchanted heavy star? My legend dwarf does as much damage with one as my lowbie man(same strength). If they were thieves, the stab damages wouldnt even be close.

Because thieves are a special, protected class. They unbalance the game and make it a complete bore to play for anyone else, but management won't do anything. They're to busy fucking other things up. I play thieves about 50% of my time (warriors the other 50), and I for one wouldn't mind stab being removed or down-graded if it was replaced with something fun.

Your damage on melee weapons does go up with levels Sogard, it's connected to ob.

I thought it did, but I've tested a few times by having ym lowbie kill a mob, then a legend kill it, and excluding time swhen wounds were inflicted, it took the same number of hits, using the same weapons, for both chars.

You need to redo your 'tests'. :)

I've exped a couple of warriors from lvl 1 with ornates and mdas, and they sure as hell don't hit anywhere close as hard as legends.

Wasn't there a discussion on Elvenrunes where you had foolproof 'tests' as well that turned out to be VERY lacking?.. :)

Some valar once told me that blacksword's insane damage partly comes from its ob bonus, since 5 ob equals 1 damage. So basically the blacksword with 40 ob bonus, has a 2 damage advantage to any other 20 ob weapon.

This seems to be pretty likely as far as I can see (and as far as I've noticed ob impacting damage), so I'll believe it's been until proven wrong.

Hrm... 4 damage advantage I mean. Too late for math.

No, i never posted foolproof tests on ER to my knowledge. The two chars I tested with were legend ob: 132 and lowbies ob: 70. That'd be a large difference but werewolves, brigands, and boars all died in the same # of hits almost every time when, excluding any major wounds that could alter hp.
I'll take your word for it, altho as I've been on the receiving end of it quite a bit as a bear, I can tell you the blacksword give more than 4 more damage compared to 20ob weapons(or do oyu mean a dmg stat on weapon, not dmg dealt?). :)

I mean damage stat on weapon. I don't know how the actual damage dealt is calculated.

The blacksword has 20 base damage and 40 ob.

Mda has 13.7 base damage and 20 ob.

So basically if you transfer the ob into damage, mda has 17.7 base damage while blacksword has 28 base damage.

This is just something I was told like 2 years ago by a valar (who's name I've forgotten) when talking about blacksword's damage, and I don't know if it works exactly like that.

But ob does have a huge effect on damage dealt.

As a troll I have noticed that ob has got to do with damage too. For example, in warrens you can solo-kill a large earth troll much faster than somewhere else where your ob isn't that high.

Why everybody nagging on thieves for? Thieves are a good way to play solo and actually have a chance of doing something. I mean, if you dont like or if you just cant for some reason, play in groups, scouts is a way of letting you play effectively anyway.

Also, stab is good for slow-linked players. With stab even ppl playing from autstralia can get pkills.

Another good thing with stab is that it makes ppl feel unsafe all the time. Even out in the open. Keeps you on edge.

And lastly, thives have many weaknesses. Like moves for example. Those who said that thieves are overpowered, i mean, any class can beat a thief solo, mage with stored spells or charmies or just spells or quickspells, cleric with high defence and quickspells and moves(granted, cleric prolly will have trouble, but then cleric got immunities to all the scouts weapons, sanc vs stab, rem poison vs envenom and possibly sense life.), warrior by just being brawnier. And against groups, well, scouts mostly go solo so if we talking groups, the group can always win. Saying scouts are overpowered is just silly.

What posters above seem to want is that a scout should never have a chance to beat their precious mage or whatever. Silly. If you dislike scouts, make char specialised in hunting them. Like warrior with per and max awareness. Then the scout cant hide from you, and you gonna have better moves, better ob, and prolly be on mount while scout walks. Get a grip instead of mindless whining demanding that whatever you happen to like should be promoted to untouchable son of god.

Well i would mind if stab did like 100 dmg, but i dont like wizkill features :/

You dont like wizkill features? Well, maybe then remove store? And spray? and earthquake? and lightning bolt on bns? And bash mind you, how many times havent you died without a chance in a bashtrap? At least if you play orc. While we are at it, why not remove call lightning as well, that could be used as wizkill too. Seriously, maybe you play puke mage all the time or somesuch, and what you really dont like is that someone could use something that could be seen as wizkill on you?

ehe, seems elaros is a scout himselves. Anyways, my rant about 'wizkill' features is probably relevant to any of the stabwhiners.

I play no stabbers, nor wizkilling chars

If you thing that "ranger" class are all stabbers, then you know nothing about mume :P

And i would like to remove bash :o) my cleric uses NO mage spells, and my mage has not even fireball or call lightning...i guess i would like to remove all wizkill features...

Maybe i only dont like that when i lag or freeze for a sec someone with 10 ms lands a wizkills feature on me...but seems juss is another wanna be sogard so....i have nothing more to say

Joss, not juss, juss is another player on another account.

But think about it, if you remove everything that can be seen as wizkill, then there will be nothing left, well, slashing skill and broadswords perhaps. The only reason people whine about backstab is because its not their wizkill.

Elaros, does your mage use block door? Thats probably the single most wizkilling spell in the game.

I agree stabbers suck in every way, i recently got stabbed by letorin and thrill, thrill killed alot of my friends by bstabing

Joss, i pk rarely...and all my chars are made upon RP basis...

..and when i PK i lose because all my chars are made upon RP basis..thats something you would never understand..

...and i suck as player too...so this combination is deadly...but for me ;)

Fair anough, RP is cool :) So, my comments miss you completely. But many of the posters here are prolly pkillers, so i redirect my comments to them.

Just realised why im defending stab. Mume PK is ruled by a small cast of very dedicated players with great skills and great eq. These people often know each other since years and also know every smob in the game by heart. Because they are skillfull and most of the time clad in ubereq, they keep a steady stream of kills coming in, mostly average players like me or newbies. Thus, when one of them die, he quickly gets eq from friends that any average mumer could only dream of.

These players rock my ass hundereds of hundereds of times. Skills apart, how can my mda or engraved compete with his ornate? How can my combination of chanted broadsword plus bastard sword compete with his glowsword? How can my bloodencrusted compete with his shining or fine? How can I make up for the ob his ruby ring or iron ring supplies? How can my spells compete with his circlet-copper-corberyl combination? How can my 25 levels touch his 60? Now, granted, i can make a staffed pukemage and tell myself im hotstuff by quickbolting bns to death. Personally I dont like casters that much.

Part of the story is that I find it hard to find groups. I tend to play erratically, ie I play fanatically for a couple of weeks or two months, then I lose interest and dont play for 6 months-1year, then I come back. Also, got no rl friends that play. Here is where stab comes in. The difference between my stab, and uberset stab is difference between chanted fang stab and brd stab, ie it is very small. Also, I can get bhsb solo, wararrows solo, venoms solo. So stab is actually a balancing skill. It lets me, very seldomly, get some payback on those players I can nomrally not touch, that has overkilled my solochars hundereds of hundereds of times. It is the last resort of the meek and the slowlinked, the penniless and friendless. Sure, the skill is not the same as playing group-warrior PK, but then, such fights I would almost always lose anyways since im solo and enemy often have huge eq-advantage.

Furthermore, backstab damagecap is presently set so that almost all legend chars survive it. Mage with 165 hp+fresh armour survives it, cleric with 200hp and armour survives it, thief with 300 hp survives it, warrior just laughs in your face and starts hunting you. Think thats why they set the cap where they did, a horrific attack but survivable. As long as you regen behind closed door.

Another effect of stab is to make people regen behind closed doors, thus increasing the chance of creating fight-to the death scenarios for non-stabbers.

Well why should all clerics have armour spell ? i play a druid...he dies in one stab...why shoudl all thieves have 300 hps ? well you see that backstab forces you to make only "optimized" char....all else die when it lags or freezes for a bit..

I hate the fact that im standing on 10X10 miles room of plains and something suddenly stabs me in back :/ i think the succes should be make upon the room :/ forest = easy, plains = not possible..

And to the post before...yes eq rules, yes its management fault that all uses hammers and metals, because armour abs is constant, while defence is not...

Well, spears are efficient vs everyone :) And with smite you can choose if you want to be efficient vs riding(everyone) or vs trolls or vs metal. You use spear on your ranger? I think thats kindof classic, and spear pretty good too.

Well, but you see why i defend stab? And thieves? I know we are different, im a gamer and you are more RP. But you see my point? That stab makes PK possible for solo-ppl, and sortof negates uber-eq? And that any class can beat a thief? And that the reason people say that hide and such is wiz-skills is because they dont bother to practice awareness and still demand to be effective vs sneaky thives?

btw, I mean, about your druid. And not practicing armour. I mean, well, if you make a cleric without armour, some stabs are going to kill you outright. But, I mean, isnt that just a weakness of druids then? Like, a hobbit will rarely survive a bash with 2 trolls in the room.

btw, armour is such a low level spell, it doesnt decrease your cleric-level at all. Isnt it a small comprimise to practice it? just to avoid the annoyance of dying to one stab from full hp? Or, a druid who lives in the wilderness, shouldnt he have high con and some endurance pracced? and at least decent spear or some such? that would put his hp at, 230 something? so then you will only die to uper-level perfect thieves, and well, we all do. die to uber-level chars once in awhile.

If you don't armor, then you sanc. If you don't sanc either, you're free xp for the first decent enemy you run into.

230 hps can still die to a single stab from most legends joss, even those around 25-30.

Sogard...i dont know if you ever played a cleric w/o staff and armour spell..or we are playing the same game...but lets say armour last 24 mume hours if it not drops by dmg, sancuary last 3 hours and takes more than 1/3 of my mana...

I would rather have cleric spell similar to armour than sanc :/

And my druid barely has 180 hps...in 3rd age...

I have no problems with warrior or shamans agains me, i have only problems with stabbers...because sooner or later they will catch you...when you type, freeze or simple fail to reveal like usual...

I remember when trolls were west i didnt bother to put sanc up in shire and was stabbed by Patt or what was that fakker orc name while i was narrating :P

That didnt piss me off..im used to die, but the fact Patt wanted to stab my shadow for plain set, not even one gold, and not oaken chanted staff :/

But i noticed its pretty common by orcs to spamloot my plain set, sack and rough staff...i guess noc is full of naked newbies who needs fresh plain set ;)

So i burn every corpse i found, including troll boots and skins or orcs metals :/

Elaros, the reason some orcs spamloot is that they had a hard childhood. Pukes were very mean to them when they grew up so some of the less forgiving kind hold a grudge. This is especially true for zorks.

Elaros, some clerics play with sanc up always. they sanc, sleep till full mana, run around the 3-4 min they have till it runs out, then tey resanc, and repeat. I believe Aza said somewhere on ER that pampa budach and rumbard could get sanced, take a min for the cleric to regen full mana, and have 4-5 min of the 3 of them being glowing*. As tedious and lame as such a tactic sounds, it does work if done right.

*i know that pampa(or whomever the cleric is0 has levels and staff over your character, but it always has 2 other targets to sanc. Your 180hp druid sounds very... frail. what's it's name again? ;)

Dont worry its retired, at least for RL year for age...

Maybe they spamloot because they don't want to hang about in a hostile area sorting through stuff? I hate all this complaining about looting. When you die your equipment is no longer yours. If you manage to get something back, then so be it, but you have no right to it.

Also to a recently-died stabber, plain sets are essential. Rough staffs are also useful to darkies. Sacks may contain useful things.

As for clerics, well you can either sanc or armour. If you do neither then don't moan about being stabbed.

Arzantor writes:
Also to a recently-died stabber, plain sets are essential.

Then again, pukes come in such peculiar forms that their clothes hardly ever fit..

Arzantor are you retarded ? i wasnt arguing about death it self (i said i dont care)...

...but if a stabber stabs me alone in room, types exa corpse (isnt that hard trust me) and see plain set with fgc then no need to do shadow :P

And tell me what does orc do with rough staff ? wipe his ass ?

And again you didnt got the point...i said that chars that are pracced on RP basis sucks on mume...unless thief :/

I dont know why im responding to your bullshit (even if it is in excellent english) but still bullshit....

Elaros, maybe he just looted to hurt you? That would be good RP..

Why are you bitching about a set of eq that takes only a few minutes to get anyways? Maybe the orc thought he could get something for the staff, or maybe they decided they wanted their spoils of war.

Corpses need to be fully looted more often, then maybe someday people will stop bitching about something they have no right to. Bitch on some other MUDs like you do on MUME, and you'd be the laughing stock of that MUD.

Well Sogard i share you opinion i always burn corpses and i expect to be fully looted...yet i dont see the fun of killing shadow in middle of shire with plain set and rough staff...and yes ! i had sack with thyme !

But back on topic, stabber are gay, arzantor is stupid and sogard is archwhiner royal...

If there's a container in the corpse, you HAVE to loot it. If you don't, and there are thirty scrolls, and dozens of gems in it, you become the laughing stock of the game when your victim tells everyone you left it.

If I remember correctly, rough staves have some use to darkies, but I can't be sure.

Yes ? and what purpose ? maybe as wood in campfire....or you wanna scrolls for it ? and maybe shining from sauron ?

Thrakngash used to give 500 or 1k xp for puke-chated items I i believe. Should still, but I haven't given him a non-foci in alon time(or a foci since sage started giving better rewards than 5k xp).

Saurman might give something, but I still have yet to visit him and find out. I've heard he gives rewards for istari staves, butafaik, it's only a rumor. next time I kill an eagle and loot their wand, I'll try to find out though. :P

As i said ! it wasnt even chanted and that BN around with detect magic could see it :/

Elaros:
But back on topic, stabber are gay,

-Your way of proving it, that your druid with 180 hp(low con, no warrior-skills) and no armour(too expensive, mebbe low int on that druid too?) dies to one stab is just not very convincing.


Elaros:
arzantor is stupid

-namecalling is pretty lame in a debate, especially someone who sit on such high horses as you..


Elaros:
and sogard is archwhiner royal...

-correct me if im wrong, but havent your contribution to this thread been, ehr, well, whingin?

btw, you didnt answer my observation that looting is good RP? Seeing as you are so big on RP, you should be fine with looting, shouldnt you? I mean, an extreme of RP would be to have your char deleted each time he dies, a softer approach might be to never loot your corpse?

Now now joss, let him be hypocritical if he wants. I just hope he's on his druid after i unretire and foy my stabber. ;)

Sogard as you have ever killed anything..noone ever sees you on mume, only whining on some mume sites...but if you wanna fight i can grab notrp char and we can fight 1:1 but i bet you would run after few seconds (like all stabbers) so no point...

If you only can kill useless chars then i dont know why you need visible wps :P

And Joss if you read my posts, you will see i have nothing agains spam looting...but if you are going speaking about RP, if you as stabber would kill some old man in tattered robe with wooden staff 300 miles from home, would you take it or take all the way back ??? propably not....


"extreme of RP would be to have your char deleted each time he dies"

Joss you have no idea what RP means, it doesnt mean you will put RL in a game like most people thinks, it means you will stick to your characters ideals and play dwarf as dwarf and elf as elf...it means that as an elf you would never touch mottled cloak or use orcish fang...as troll you wouldnt be wimp and fight more berserk style etc etc...

So please if you have nothing to contribute and dont know what are you speaking about...dont comment on RP, or you will join "Sogard's Club" who thinks that roleplay on mume is farming and fishering...

"Your way of proving it, that your druid with 180 hp(low con, no warrior-skills) and no armour(too expensive, mebbe low int on that druid too?) dies to one stab is just not very convincing.
"

its beorning with max in wis wil, with 10 str con dex, with only cleric and rangers skillls....
I guess is pretty ok statted and praced RP char...but i guess you are such an expert you can tell me what is wrong...
Its an old beorning druid with powers of nature...im eager to see how would you prac it and stat it...

"-namecalling is pretty lame in a debate, especially someone who sit on such high horses as you.."

He started it in another thread so please, read them all and make picture...

"correct me if im wrong, but havent your contribution to this thread been, ehr, well, whingin?"

I agree whining produces whining only...sadly...but i never start to whine...i only respond to whines....

Elaros, you're so utterly stupid that I honestly don't know where to begin when it comes to dealing with you.
for the last time for the idiots like you, I'm not the only person who wants visible, or a toggle for WPS, a large percent of the players want them.

Second, you can drop your high and mighty bullshit, your name never stood out until you starting blindly bullshitting here.

Third, I rarely log sessions. I've beaten wwell-setted Zorc warlords as a bear, killed legend bears as a sub-hero unarmed troll, and Most of my chars have a nice long trophy of PK. However, I die often as well, which won't warlord you.

As for you making my scout runs, get over yourself, Nazgum helped me setup the car, and it's quite good when stab isn't an option, or doesn't finish the job. Nice bash and enough ob to pound.


It's obvious now just how dumb you are with your "sogard's club" comment. You must be new, or dense, otherwise you'd know I've spent a long time trying to get Rp accross. However, I enjoy the PK as well, and right now, PK suffers more than RP. I've probably RPed far more often than you, so cut the bullshit, and I'll look forward to the free xp of your 'rp char'. If you think stab's a problem, you've not fought many war scouts (or a sneaking bear, my god those are annoying).

Continue to spew your same old crap if you'd like. It's clear you're taking a stab in the dark to try and describe me, and you're still far off.

Hehe no offense Sogard but i think i play longer then you :o))) but...

"Continue to spew your same old crap if you'd like." this made me laugh...now you know how tastes your own medicine...

"I've probably RPed far more often than you" .. lol ?

And you are right, PK suffers more then RP and i totaly agree...but only because there is no RP to hurt anyway ;)

Elaros:
And Joss if you read my posts, you will see i have nothing agains spam looting...

-so stop trying to make it out that orc did wrong looting you. see next comment.

Elaros:
but if you are going speaking about RP, if you as stabber would kill some old man in tattered robe with wooden staff 300 miles from home, would you take it or take all the way back ??? propably not....

-If I was playing my zork I would do one of two things:kill your tired old man, loot, spread stuff on ground and hide, waiting for rekill. OR I would loot all, burn corpse(or butcher and drain it) and hide posessions 10 rooms away. My zork is a hater, he had a hard childhood.

Elaros:
its beorning with max in wis wil, with 10 str con dex, with only cleric and rangers skillls....
I guess is pretty ok statted and praced RP char...but i guess you are such an expert you can tell me what is wrong...
Its an old beorning druid with powers of nature...im eager to see how would you prac it and stat it...

-if he is old, has max int, then armour shouldnt be a problem. Guess you dont use staff on it, so maybe. But mana regen is awesome at old age.
Just a comment. Sure, with all those open rooms up there, he will live even against hittergroup. But in any and all tightspots he wouldnt last long. Like going into slag. Reason it is stab that catches your ire is that open field is not safe to stab but safe to anything else. Now, from the PK-side, the problem here is not stab, its that any and all openfield zones are 100% safe even for frail old beorning druids, not to mention anything else. The reason so many stabbers make it to warlord is that they messed up pk with safespots and open rooms. Stab is not affected by those changes. All other pk is so you get trapping, bashtraps and stabs on warlord. SUCKS.

You still didnt get point, "Armour spell" is a MAGE spell, it has nothing to do with nature, and regular armour has nothing to do with nature neither....so its like i said...its a RP char but has no means of abs ;)


You made me laugh....

-If I was playing my zork I would do one of two things:kill your tired old man, loot, spread stuff on ground and hide, waiting for rekill. OR I would loot all, burn corpse(or butcher and drain it) and hide posessions 10 rooms away. My zork is a hater, he had a hard childhood.

If you would wait for rekill you would not RPing...but i agree that comming back for eq in my corpse isnt RP either...

And still you miss again the point...i was speaking of doing shadow in shire full of bounders for plain set ;) not the LOOOOTING IT SELF, with that i have no problem...

Elaros:
You still didnt get point, "Armour spell" is a MAGE spell, it has nothing to do with nature, and regular armour has nothing to do with nature neither....so its like i said...its a RP char but has no means of abs ;)

-seems a small compromise to make.


Elaros:
And still you miss again the point...i was speaking of doing shadow in shire full of bounders for plain set ;) not the LOOOOTING IT SELF, with that i have no problem...

-sure fooled me(with your comments about this infamous looting in the shire, I understood it as you thought it was unchivelrous of the orc to loot plain stuff, guess i was wrong).


Elaros:
If you would wait for rekill you would not RPing...but i agree that comming back for eq in my corpse isnt RP either...

-Who cares about the character, My zork want to hurt the PLAYER, RL. FKING!#¤"%!! useless pukeplaying scum, DIEDIEDIIE.

Hurting the player in a text games is somewhat imature and retarded, i guess you should seek rl life, find a girl and live a nice life...then you have no need to hurt others in a game... :/

Elaros:
Hurting the player in a text games is somewhat imature and retarded, i guess you should seek rl life, find a girl and live a nice life...then you have no need to hurt others in a game... :/

-Your really should develop a sense of humour. Really. It wont hurt you. I noticed that you answered in the same way to an obvious joke on the - mume, is it a game - thread too. Dont you realise that if you answer an obvious joke with sanctomonious bullshit like the stuff above, people wont like you? Some might even find you a bit silly?

I marked you as a imature teen and i wont comment any further ;)

I RPed extensively as my rangerfor sveeral years Elaros, as well as my dwarf for a fewmonths, but quit when its use had run out for the most part (you could say the char retired from his storytelling).


I'd have to say that calling someone immature and retarded because they 'hurt' you by taking wht is rightfully theirs and not yours, is a pretty pathetic arguement. You're just flaming now and are giving roughly as good an arguement as Gray did to justify sunning trolls when people loot foci.

If you're some RP lover like you claim, then you're an insult to RPers to question why someone would want to cause harm to their vicitms when they're playing AN EVIL ORC, or whatever. Also, if you're 'rp druid' is a Beorning, that means he rarley leaves the vale, and certainly isn't found west of this misties, or rivendel, right? Ever wonder if the reason why Rp is hurting so much on MUME has to do with the fact that MUME's setup kills any true RP for the most part?

Out of curiosity: Where do stabbers roam nowdays? I'we been playing 'Troll only' for practically about half a year now and have only seen (! *think*) one stabber.
Are (puke/zorc) stabbers all around NOC, Ohurk, Tbad or where?

Elaros:
I marked you as a imature teen and i wont comment any further ;)

-so i guess an immature teen slaughtered your argument and made you retreat to such cheap-shots :)

Sogard did you really read what i wrote ? i wrote that trying to hurt the PLAYER in a game is imature...not the looting...

And my druid resides mostly in VT healing and supporting bears, its only that there is no cleric guild in vale...so i have to move to teachers...but its a vale rat...you though i play in bree ? hehe :o)

And i have no problem when someone claims to be playing EVIL ORC and hating ELVES...but that char hates the race in the GAME not the player, so yes its imature to try hurt the player instead of the char (even tho it goes together)

And i still think you dont know what RP means....tell me how you roleplay your ranger and what is it ? elven scout ? What it is personality ? its dreams ?

Guess elaros gets his kicks out of killing mobs :) Me, I prefer someone who smashes his keyboard on the other side :) But i usually act nice, its just some chars of mine that turn into shitheads.

Will you cunts learn to format your posts properly?

Hmm...something like this Arzantor ??

Shut the fuck up you stupid idiot ?

Something like what? It helps to include some context in your post so I know what the fuck you're talking about. Idiot piece of shit.

Only Cunt here on mume.net are you Arzantor...

Arzantor writes:
Will you cunts learn to format your posts properly?

Arzantor also writes:
Something like what? It helps to include some context in your post so I know what the fuck you're talking about. Idiot piece of shit.

Well, if you had read the entire thread you would have had the context you are asking for. If you couldnt be bothered to read the thread before commenting it would be better to post with humility OR just write a comment to the first threadstarting post. In my opinion.