*#>news last
Message 2122 : Bug: Trolls hiding (Namo)
Written on Tue Jun 15 06:35:17 2004

Recently we've discovered that Trolls can hide. This is a bug and should've
been reported by the ones who first discovered it.

Any troll abusing this bug will be dealt with HARSHLY. If anyone sees any
troll using this bug to gain an advantage in pk or in any other way, please
report to me or Staer. I'm sure we can find a sunny ro... deal with it quickly.

- Namo.


Surely, if they didn't want trolls to hide, it would take 1 line of code to prevent it in the hide function? And if they don't want trolls to hide, then why can bears sneak? I'm sure I remember the trolls in The Hobbit hiding from the dwarves (yeah I know this has nothing to do with MUME), but I don't see how it's abuse when a) Management have not said that it's illegal and haven't taken the VERY EASY step to prevent it happenening, and b) It's not exactly incredibly obvious and undesputable that trolls shouldn't be able to hide, and so not clear that it's a bug that it happens.

Trolls get a message when they try to sneak or ride that they're too big and strong, so one would have thought that if they didn't want trolls to hide they would have done a similar thing with the hide command? Or am I missing something? I don't think that threatening people and blaming people for not reporting an 'obvious' bug is a very gracious way of dealing with the fact that management have made a mistake or changed their mind.

Troll sneak and hide has popped up from time to time. Everyone knows it's a bug when it happens, and it has usually been a very bad hide, but since other trolls barely see, it's been a fun way to fool your friends while the sun is up in warrens.

Sure it is easy to just add a race-check when you turn on sneak, but adding small checks on everything when you find something wrong is a sure way to fill the code with extra commands. It's better to do as I hope they are doing, and trying to find the root of the problem instead (the bug).

Then remove sneaking *bears* too!!!

Zain: Thats because they are hoping that players will be mature and report bugs instead of abusing them. Sure, its their fault they didnt fix the code in the first place...but in an environment like MUME some responsibility has to be laid on the players....

God forbid management ever sees the logic in trolls being able to hide..

Hobbit: Let's hide under tha rock formation.
Troll: *STOMP*
Hobbit: *squish*

Mandor: It's not a bug, it's a simple omission in the code. It won't fill the code up with extra commands, it would be another four lines which would solve the whole issue.

Unknown: Why would anyone report it as a bug? It's widely known (even by management) that trolls can do it yet they haven't taken the simple step to fix it, and it's not 100% that trolls shouldn't be able to hide, so why would anyone automatically assume that it's a bug? It's no more a bug than bears being able to sneak. People have known about it and complained about it for ages, yet it hasn't been changed, even though it's nearly as simple as stopping trolls from sneaking.

ok goes like this..why cant bears sneak...bears sneak up on shit in real..why cant that do it on mume? people always tell stories of not seeing the bear until it was right up on them....so yea bears should be able to sneak and huge ass trolls shouldnt be able to sneak or hide... and bears have limited ob...trolls get up to 180 that I have seen prob been some that had more

Zain, you're just whining and your post has little to do with logic. Bears can sneak perfectly well iRL, why shouldn't they be able to do that in MUME too? Because you find it irritating and you don't like to fight sneaking bears as an orc? Big deal, get use to it and don't whine so much.

Zain is perfectly right in his first post.

1) If it's a bug, why don't they fix it? (mume.net has at least one log reporting this that goes back to 2001.)

2) How is anyone supposed to guess it is a bug? People can sneak and hide without skill - is that also a bug?

3) Why is it a bug - why is a troll pretending to be a rock in a forest more ridiculous than a 6-foot tall elf hiding in a tiny room or somebody sneaking while paddling a boat?

4) What next? Declaring that sneaking bears are abuse, or that hiding in certain rooms is abuse, or that sneaking without skill is abuse?

I hope they admit they screwed up.

Androg, by that logic, why can't trolls hide, cos they can in real life...oh wait, trolls don't exist, so comparing the issue to real life is not valid. If a bear can hide, why not a troll? Can't a troll hide behind a big tree or crouch down behind a bush, or hide in a dark place? The trolls in the Hobbit hid from the dwarves. Also, in real life, bears don't sneak down small tunnels, they hide in forests, a completely different thing. If you're sat at one end of an orkish tunnel looking west, and a bear is sneaking from the east, you should still be able to see it, although this is more of a problem with the sneak code rather than bears specifically. Sneaking means moving discretely so you don't notice unless you look at them directly, not being completely invisible.

Also, the issue is not so much whether trolls should be able to hide, but whether people are at fault for not immediately all knowing that it must be a bug, despite valid reasoning that it could be a normal feature.

"Big deal, get use to it and don't whine so much."

If I'm whining, then aren't management 'whining' by posting the news rather than just fixing the problem in a few lines? If you don't like whining then why read the discussions? Isn't the whole point of them for discussing things? Discussions don't necessarily mean everyone agreeing with everything. If you can't take the heat etc...

Unknown wrote:
"I hope they admit they screwed up."

Yeah, and I hope I win the lottery, there's about the same chance of either happening.

I bet you never even played at the lottery then Zain!

Trolls should be able to hide. Something that looks like a cliff/mountain/monolith should be able to act like one. Maybe they'd have trouble hiding in some place like a city, but in mines or forests or moors trolls should be able to hide by pretending they're rocks. Terribly unrp to make trolls nohide imo. A troll in Moria deeps hiding should be impossible to see, because he would just blend into the rocks. Should be better than the old Zorc hide when they were introduced.

I have never heard of someone not noticing a bear when they were out hunting, or being even a bit observant. Yes, peopel don';t notice them when fishing, camping, or being oblivious to their surroundings, but is the bear actively trying to sneak up no the person? No, they aren't, and a bear irl is -extremely- loud when fighting or chasing something.

Trolls only have 180 ob in warrens. Silly Langdin :). I've heard of bears being sneaky in woods, so thats understandable to be able to sneak, but hiding shouldn't be aloud to bears. Bears are big and have dark fur and aren't sudiable to hide in areas other then night. Trolls are even bigger and shouldn't be able to sneak or hide. Hrm, that'd be cute, maybe time of day could play a factor in wether bears and trolls should be able to hide.

Bleh, somtehing that might turn out to be fun must be a bug, like that shovel-feature :/

"Androg, by that logic, why can't trolls hide, cos they can in real life...oh wait, trolls don't exist, so comparing the issue to real life is not valid."

So, it's not valid to compare MUME-BEARS to RL-BEARS because trolls don't exist iRL? Erm?! That's your best arguement? I don't see how those two things are connected in first place, but hey!, if we take it by your logic:

Dunadan warriors should be able to bash in MUME because dwarves in real life don't exist.

Fun, heh!

ROFL ANDROG! Dwarves sure exist.

mume bears are very small by bear standards( height and weight don't change from human form)
so they should be able to sneak better than enormas things.

IHO this is surely a mistake, bears should change size and be unable to sneak when hudge ( and I was one of first with a sneaking bear)

There are lots of things that could/should be changed with bears but thats no the issue.

I think trolls should be able to hide but that they should still not be taught the skill, that way they can try and hide, but the hide will be crap

Actually, a cave troll would beable to hide quite well in caverns, just like forest/mountain/etc trolls in their natural surroundings. Troll hide should be based on the area they're trying to hide in.

Again, bears in real life are not the sneaky ninjas you people seem to think they are. I have never heard of a hunter having one sneak up on it, and people being suprised by them when fishing or doing other things while being oblivious to their surroundings wouldn't notice a human walk up to them either.

As for bears sneaking while hunting, there's no way in hell that'd happen, you can hear bears fighting from miles away in the wilderness, and when they run, it's noisy as hell.

So Androg, you saying MUMEbears exist in RL? Maybe you need to see a bear to know it's not like it. Get some knowledge in animals too maybe?

while on the subject of bears, why should they be able to speak westron in bear form, surely more rpish to have them only speak in animal like other metamorphs

ROFL BJÖRN. Where? Or wait, you have some interesting beliefs and your own religion too? I bet trolls exist iRL too? ;)

Anyway, this discussion has been on many different internet forums already and it's proven many time by A LOT MORE WISER people that bears are fully capable to sneak iRL. Besides, I brought the RL arguement up as Zain thought that his RL-arguement is totally incible and will end all discussions. So, Milzok, perhaps read the whole thread before you start flaming? You know, when people are discussing and bringing up different arguements you have to have a counter-arguement for your opponent and this is what I had.

You are comparing mume bears with RL bears it's silly. Okey if you compare a brown bear or a black bear, but a playerbear is nothing like RL. Thats what I mean't, and I think the whole RL discussion isn't necessary since we are playing in a fantsy world. The creature aren't the same as in our world. Sorry if you feel like I flamed you, wasn't my meaning. Dumb of me!

Bears cannot sneak up on an aware hunt irl, it does not happen. I've encountered bears several times while hunting, and I've beenable to hear them moving, and notice them everytime. Regardless, bears are NOT quiet once they are pissed off. There are VERY loud. A pack of bears attack something like noc monitor would cause roars and other noise to echo around in noc.

Unknown: In the hobbit(?) someone says something about bears that could speak in the common tongue. Besides, it would be a waste o feffort to code bear players to speak in animal, because people would/do just use emote to talk, which imo, should be illegal. Adding a n ability to edit your 'say' output would be decent.
Example:
Default: Someone says, 'Hi.'
change say holds up a sign saying
Now say is: Someone holds up a sign saying, 'Hi.'

Now people have no reason to use their language by-passing emotes, and since it is still the say command, gateguards would open doors for you (since emotes don't work, even emoting the exact same output as say didn't when i tried it a year ago).

People who think Bears should not sneak, go read The Hobbit.

Beorn could sneak... Which makes it role-playish (:p) to have Bears that can sneak.

People who think Trolls should not hide, go read The Hobbit.

BBT could hide... Which makes it role-playish (:p) to have Trolls that can hide.

Oh well, it sounded like a flame. :-)

PS. People who think copying other posts is fun, should not post at all.

Anyone can copy-paste... which makes it pointless (:p) to spam forums like that.

Beorn was one of the few Beornings left that could still meta wasn't he? Remove meta from beornings and problem solved! (kidding)

It's funny that trolls hiding is still considered such a serious bug, when I've seen logs and known about it since my first days here, and that it was suppose to be fixed(by apparently wasn't). Why not just make it where if you have 0 hide skill, you cannot use the command, just last with backstab, bash, spells and other things.

hide

You don't know how! :)