When do u think u are rdy to pk?

First learn how to spell...

For me it's generally hero level (though not solo fights unless your opponent is also low level).

At hero level, xp loss from pkdeath isn't much.

Uh...no need to learn spell for pk ;) just learn to reeq and run :o)

No need to learn how to spell?

*>
*ten Trolls* have arrived from the east.

*>
*a Troll* closes the bushes.

*>open buhses.
You can't find a buhses.

*>
You are dead, sorry.

Troll - once your level is two-digit. ;)
Orc - Hero
Whitie - Legend
Combo - 30+

Disclaimer: Not thatI know anything about pk... :P

But seriously, the best time to start pk is when you want to. I usually start around mid-teen levels, but usually in a group and I run away when I find anything dangerous. Mix it in with the xp so even if you always lose you still make some progress. At hero level you can usually hold your own.

Maybe only you die after you typoed once or twice...i typo a lot but my last 5 deaths with Elaros were in traps ;) and no typing skills would help me there....

First learn how to spell..

who cares about spelling on a discussion? and besides. open exit east? if not make alias of that exit and just use that?

First learn how to spell..

who cares about spelling on a discussion? and besides. open exit east? if not make alias of that exit and just use that?

Shhh Unknown...Arzantor doesnt know about this feature ;)

hehe;)!

yeah btw.... when can i start to pk with orc scout?

Not only do I know about it, I have it key-bound, and have done for years. Unfortuanetly it doesn't work for hidden exits, even if they're open! You can get round this with a client setting which sets the exits when you go into the room, so for instance when you go to the room east of thornbushes, it sets the 'open west' keybinding to 'open thornbushes w'. This might be illegal though, I don't know if it could be detected, and I haven't implemented such a system myself.

It is _very_ illegal. It has already been stated many-many times before, that such stuff is illegal. But hey, with all the actiontrackers/followers around, who cares? If things get too out of hand, just find some estonian to blame it on and all are happy for some time again. :)

I dont know now, but i think its ilegal when its set by the action of other player (open the doors)...but i really dont know because i dont even have key bindings for open exit "dir"...

Unless I misunderstood the way Arzanator has fixed his client then... that is very very illegal. Of course, I'd be happy if anyone could explain it in clearer words.

Oh and Elaros, while actions based on other player movements are illegal, then those are not the only actions which are illegal. ;)

As i said..i dont know cause im lazy to make something usefull in clien ;) i have only numpad for movement...

Eh, pk when the chance appears. If you're xping in dunland with 1-2 others, and you see a bn, kill it. Tping yourlowbie orc in the vale and run into a *man/bear* con it, and try to kill it if close to your level (low level metas are easy as hell to hit).

Level all depends on your tastes and should be done when you're ready, or if you can't avoid it (getting blocked in somewhere with enemies).

If it's impossible to detect (it could just be an alias you already have), can it really be illegal?

Yes, Arzantor, it can be. If you kill somebody with undetectable poision, isn't it still murder? You are morally bankrupt. On the bright side, we know who to watch for cheating now.

You are ready to pkill whenever you 1) feel you have a chance to get a kill, 2) feel you won't die so fast that it won't be at all fun, 3) aren't very scared to die and lose your eq.

As a troll, you can start pkilling from lev 5 or so if you have mobs or a groupmember or two on your side. As a BN, I wouldn't do it these days before lev 15 or so. I would say that the rest all fall somewhere in the middle. There are plenty of logs on mume.net where lowbies get kills on other lowbies and sometimes even highlevs.

Actually, I don't know if what Arzantor named is illegal. Yes, it _should_ be illegal by the rules, but if it is illegal, MUME management has sure done a good job of ignoring everyone who is using it. (And there are plenty of logs that demonstrate the use of such setups in detail.)

IMHO, if there's one thing that really should be dealed with and killed off, it is the use of such client setups which do not leave a chance to anyone who ends up in a tough closeable with their user. But try and convince Staer or somebody else.

But if you can't detect it at all, why bother making it illegal?

You have some of the most retarded logic I've ever seen Arzantor.

Something being undetectible doesn't atuomatically make it legal. Hard to catch, sure, but legal? No.


It'd be pretty interesting to see MUME for a day where everyone had to use pure telnet and would have to connect via the mume webpage or something.

ok so to clarify, someone closes a door, that is set to a variable, then you hit an aliases using that variable, legal or illegal?

or how about look north, open door is set to variable, you use alias to close?

--> look north, open door is set to variable, you use alias to close

ILLEGAL.

--> someone closes a door, that is set to a variable, then you hit an aliases using that variable

VERY ILLEGAL.

How can it be illegal if it doesn't send anything back to the game? It's my computer, not mume's, what goes on in my variables in my memory space on my computer is none of their business. If mume sends a message to me, that says 'X opens the door', and I set a variable to hold the word 'door', how is that any of mume's business? What are they planning to do, install spyware on people's computers to see what they're doing on their own property? Mume is really stepping the bounds, the power has got to their heads, they think they own us if we play their game.

Also, it can't be illegal, as mume doesn't have laws, just rules.

Arzantor........... you are some poor demented soul it seems :D

Well, do as you wish, Arzanator, at least I won't care if you get caught and demoted or not. :)

Arzantor, are you really dense, or just refuse to read the rules? I'm guessing the latter since any idiot can see how automaticly having exits set for you is an unfair pk advantage.


not to mention that you using such thing must mean you suck, hard. I bet you'd get stomped into the dust if you had to use telnet.

We already have spyware on your computer Arzantor. We know about the variables in your memory space. And we know about the pictures you think you deleted. Straighten up or we're calling the cops.

Shit they're onto me.

I can understand action tracking, or autobashing, or action following are illegal, I don't understand how if my character sees someone open a door I can set that door to a key so I can use it, is he not allowed to remember? There is nothing automated, I send the input, there is no robot, its all me.

The point is, if its a hidden exit, the open exit "dir" button wont help you...and if its exit like hiddenbrickstupidsmellywall and you have to type manualy its sucks, when enemy is pressing one button only :p

Every player has a reaction time, while a client does not, for all practical purposes. Even if you've aliased "open greystonewall west" to something, you still need some time to find that alias or realias it. Somebody walking with an automapper, on the other hand, has the client do all the work for him. In fact, he could type "west" and have the client do the door opening and then move him.

I will be pressing one button whether it is an action or not, setdoor hiddenbrickstupidsmellywall, now all I gotta do is hit one button, the action is just quicker at setting the variable. Setting the variable and having an alias is faster then typing it out by hand, why not ban aliases?

Actions will save your ass when nothing else will do. Example: Yesterday I had hyperlinked bn trapped in closeable. He recovered from bash, opened exit, fled out and closed exit (which was hidden on the other side) all in .00000001 of a second. It was a real obvious action cheat if you witness it live. Even if he just using alias keys, he cannot do it that fast. It was ridiculous. There isn't much you can do about. All I do is leave when I see someone I know is a cheater. You wouldn't play cards with someone you know has 4 aces up his sleeve; why play Mume with someone who is cheating?

You do the work when you alter an alias.


You don't do jack shit when an action does it for you.

I have to say that I find this thread simply hilarious. If something is declared illegal then it's illegal and that's it. But noo... somehow some people find it most important to continue discussing it. Couldn't you all just accept a fact?!

Androg, I find it very hard to accept the fact that an illegal thing - even if clearly illegal by the rules - is not being policed, even when there's plenty of evidence, as in some logs.

Don't you yourself see anything wrong with this?

And if it's illegal de jure but not de facto, since it's not being enforced, and if a ton of people are using it, then why shouldn't everyone use it, to level the playing field somewhat?

"[W]hy shouldn't everyone use it, to level the playing field somewhat?"

Because some people have integrity.

So you claim everyone should just get killed by client-abusers like sheep for the sake of a rule the gods may or may not mean but certainly do not enforce? Are you sure it wouldn't be better to get at least client-abusers to work a little for their wps?

Would it be against your morals to draw a gun and shoot at someone who drew it first and was aiming at you, especially if you knew the police did not care and would not come?

(I don't have a gun, and I don't have such a client setup and never will, I think. But years of playing this MUD have made me wonder if any moral norms are applicable in the situations where everyone is against you.)

even if the action sets the door, I still have to hit the right key, and if the door on the other side has a diffrent name I have to write it by hand.

No, previous poster... Modern client setups set doornames for you whenever you move by the roomname, and bind them to the same key, so you only need to remember one key for open and one for close. So when you're on the other side, your "open doorname" is bound to the same key as before, and you just have to hit the same key.

Androg, I find it very hard to accept the fact that an illegal thing - even if clearly illegal by the rules - is not being policed, even when there's plenty of evidence, as in some logs

Well, I don't know about policing it/them, but when I asked about exactly those versions from Staer few months back he said they're illegal. And at least in my book, if Staer says it's illegal, then it's illegal, no matter what is written in the rules. :)

Btw, anyone who thinks Arzantor's actions can't be caught are dead wrong. Provided the commands for Aratas are as extensive on MUME as they are for any imp/coimp on other muds, it wouldn't be difficult to catch your actions, and then nuke your account for it (which is what I'd do).


Someone on ER said that if you look at an exit and it sets the varible that way, that it's legal, but Unless Staer himself says it, don' believe it. I strongly suggest you peeople using such actions get rid of them.

1. How can you catch an action if it doesn't send anything to the game, but only alters local settings? If a door alias is automatically set, how would the game know that you didn't already have that alias? Many players have such lists of aliases for secret doors, or have aliases which set a group of door aliases for each area they go into.

2. How can something which only involves your own computer be illegal? Mume's authority doesn't stretch over your own computer, a lawyer like Staer should know that.

3. If you have an illegal client setting and post a log of it, you're a fucking idiot and deserve to be demoted for being such a complete retard. Showing off is less important than keeping your account.

4. In the example with the BN above, anyone can do that with no actions nor a fast link, you merely pretype it all, when the bash is finished all the commands go through with no link-delay. It wasn't 0.0001 seconds, it could only be half a second at the quickest, as there is a 250ms delay between commands, giving you ample time to either close the exit or follow him.
It's not uncommon to have aliases set for hidden doors, so you type a quick alias or key-binding, but to the beginner it may look like using actions when that speedy *Orc* closes greyslimybrickwall twenty times in 5 seconds.
There are a lot of examples when someone being hunted has accused the hunter of using actions, when they are merely making good use of keybindings and pretyping.

I'm not going to tell you how to catch it, I'm going to tell Staer so that he can see your actions. Why would I help you avoid punishment? I know exactly how to catch your actions, because I've used the same method to bust botters and cheaters on MUDs I've worked for in the past.


You fail to realize that your clinet affects how you interact in an enviroment which you are only allowed to play on as long as you obey the rules of the owners. you're reminding me of the idiots who think it's fine for them to go smoke like a fucking chimney, then come into class and let me gag for anhour on their canerous stench. you're allowed to make whatever triggers and aliases you want. However, you aren't allowed to use them on MUME, see the difference? If you don't, then you're hopeless, and I'll look forward to the vague justice post about you.

Sure, some fast people have been accused of using actions, but you fucking admitted it, so we know it's true and that you aren't pretyping.

I 'fucking admitted it'? That's libel. I ask you to retract your statement and to not make such libellious comments in the future. That comment is a lie that defames my character and I may have to ask the site adminstrator to remove it.

I have to agree with Sogard.... *cringe*

About being able to detect client actions:

Years ago I was playing other mud and was using tintin++ mudclient. My client had xpcounter. One immo once decided to make fun and sent all text that I saw when i had killed some mob to global channel. All my client variables and lines that got printed by client were visible to him -- the text that I was sure only I can see. I still dont know how could he do that.

If it shows up on your screen, an imm with a snoop command can see it. The things that're setup to not show anything when they go off are alittle harder to catch, but by no means impossible.

That's just way too weird, Cedrim. Your client had to send this stuff to the game, not just print on your screen.

Maybe he just pretended the mob died, and your client printed out the normal stuff for you personally?

Or maybe you had an action set that sent this stuff to the MUD under certain conditions?

Sogard, could you please stop posting total nonsense? No, stuff client _merely prints on your screen without sending to the MUD_ does not travel anywhere on the net, unless the computer (or just the client itself) is trojaned. Variable settings and aliases, for example, are quite invisible for the MUD (unless the client is malicious). If it is not sent anywhere off your computer, there's no way for a god to see it.

I consider it highly unlikely that the client (or your computer) was trojaned so that it would forward all the contents of your scroll to the immortal in question. If you were using a client written specifically for that MUD, or some shady client containing some really bad undocumented features, then, of course, anything is possible - but no self-respecting client software like tintin++ should be doing any such crap. Very weird.

Sogard, if this is the extent of your knowledge about how the game works, then I highly doubt that you could give the high gods any useful advice.

Setting aliases for exits is legal right?

So if someone sets its client so when he enters a 'Tharbad zone' room, all the exits of the zone are setted to o1,o22,o30 etc... is it still legal?

What if you need to type 'tharbad' to set them?

What if they are setted when you enter a room? So you'd have at most 6 hidden exit aliases?

my scout:
This ranks you as xxx the Orkish Scout (level 13).

You have exchanged deadly blows with the enemies of the Zaugurz. (7th level)

*** TROPHY *** (Number Killed, Knowledge, Mobile)

| 1, 0%, #Sapat | 1, 0%, #Ungoliath |
| 3, 0%, #Matum | 1, 0%, #Seldaran |
| 1, 0%, #Volur | |

i started to pk when bored at lev 9:P
just hanged around noc etc stealing loot for credit and stealing torc/puke xps:P

Re previous unknown. Well, unless I am mistaken, somebody claimed before that Staer said that everything that does not involve you typing a doorname manually (e.g. for setting an alias) is illegal. Thus typing 'tharbad' would be illegal too with one caveat - nobody ever enforces this rule.

A lot of pkillers run around with mappers that set exitnames when you enter the room. Thus, it might be illegal, but it isn't enforced - I sure have never heard of anyone getting demoted for doing this.

Well, consider the following situations, A and B:

A: A player travels from Bree to Tharbad. Upon approaching Tharbad, he types 'tharbad', it sets doorname '4' to 'greystonewall e'. In a fight in MA area, he types 'o4' to 'open greystonewall e', and escapes a pursuing enemy who is manually typing 'greystonewall e'.

B: A player travels from Bree to Tharbad. Before leaving Bree he manually types 'door4 greystonewall e', setting doorname '4' to 'greystonewall e'. In a fight in MA area, he types 'o4' to 'open greystonewall e', and escapes a pursuing enemy who is manually typing 'open greystonewall e'.

In both situations, the result is the same. However, according to what 'Unknown' said above, situation A is highly illegal, and B is perfectly legal.

Now, my question is, why would one be illegal, and one not? Neither is an action which responds to game output, they both set aliases to open doors. They both involve knowledge of doornames, either for setting the alias, or for setting up the script to set the alias. Does the doorname need to be typed in the immediate vacinity of the area? Can it be pretyped a thousand rooms away, or in your client configuration-file editor?

Now, my question is, why would one be illegal, and one not?

Arzanator, now you brought up an extreme example. But fact is we could currently bring out several analogues of situation A which would look very illegal without doubt. And as rules logically need to be at least somewhat general and because we logically cannot make a special line in rules for every single circumstance then A simply is illegal.

You can't just say 'A is illegal, just because it's too hard to come up with hard rules'. You have to justify it being illegal. Your reply is a cop-out.

Dura lex, sed lex !!

You can't just say 'A is illegal, just because it's too hard to come up with hard rules'. You have to justify it being illegal.

I can't, but A+ can. It's their game, they can do whatever they want with it. ;)

And aside that - which I actually find a perfectly "enough" explanation - then rules need to be clear and not ten thousand pages long, but at the same time still detailed. That is why there can't be a rule for every last circumstance, (a) no way can anyone think of every last circumstance, (b) we'd have rules ten thousand pages long then. Generally I think MUME's rules are pretty good in the "middle" of that scale I described shortly above, although I admit, there are some parts which are a bit too general.

Only actions can be illegal in some cases, aliases can not be illegal.
If someone sets alias 'door4 = greystonewall e' and other relevant aliases just by typing 'tharbad' then he is using alias to set up bunch of aliases.

Its another case when by entering certain room or certain zone your client is triggered to set up dooraliases automagically. It is illegal (most likely).

Both A and B are perfectly legal in MUME and if Androg or Unknown thinks otherwise you are welcome to point out relevant MUME rule or newspost which supports your claim.

A newspost wouldn't stand up in the rules, you can't expect a new player to read thousands of news posts, especially when most of the things in there have since been replaced or obsoleted.

I was thinking about newspost which clarifies the meaning of some rule. Androg is correct in saying that 'there can't be a rule for every last circumstance'. There can be borderline cases in which you would need to interpret rule to see if it applies or not. And result of such interpretation would result in newspost, if immo felt it is important enough. Though as you can see in MUME, these posts or rather their point is usually added to the text of rules at some time.

Examples A and B that you presented, need no such interpretation of rules however, this is clear to me.

Both A and B are perfectly legal in MUME and if Androg or Unknown thinks otherwise you are welcome to point out relevant MUME rule or newspost which supports your claim.

Cedrim, I got even better thing for you than newspost or line in rules. I got Staer personally tell me that such are illegal. How about that?

Arzanator, trust me in this, newbies who do something because we weren't aware of the situation, usually don't get punished either. :)

If you would look more carefully, Androg, you would see, that in this thread you are reacting the same way towards different things.

1) look north, open door is set to variable, you use alias to close -- this is illegal, you are using action to get doorname into variable.

2) someone closes door, doorname is set to variable
-- this is illegal, you are using action to get doorname into variable.

Arzantor (in post 2005-03-04 20:47:38) was talking about:

3) type 'tharbad' and have aliases set for all doors in MA area -- this is not illegal since you are not using actions

4) manually make all aliases for MA area doors before entering that area -- this is not illegal since you are not using actions

I refuse to believe that Staer said that cases 3 and 4 are illegal.

4) manually make all aliases for MA area doors before entering that area -- this is not illegal since you are not using actions

I haven't said that *that* is illegal.

ok morons, you cant prolly understand the real topic here, create your own thread for door settings? this is "when to start pk" thread.
I really hate to say that but you are spammy dumbasses who ignore every1 and play smartass like Gray.

Androg you asked me on MUME if im playing :) yes i tried :) but failed horribly :) working for uni and muming sucks :/ didnt notice Im riding and died horribly..so..im NOT playing again (at least for this weekend)

Yeah sure... I saw you online even today!! :P

I died a hour ago :) and my bad english..wanted to type week, not weekend :)

Well, considering you are a mud-addict, then weekend sounded even slightly believable, while a week is clearly a fiction never going to happen!! ;)

We'll probably see you online tomorrow morning or so.. :P

Clients are for skillless players anyway. Learn to pk using pure telnet, and when you start using a client the boost from it will make you that much better.

Surely part of the skill-set is in using the client? I.e getting the hang of the aliases and keybindings?

Sogard i think i have played w/o client much more than you:P When class marches into comp. class i have to move to terminals (286 + old sk00l black & white 12" monitors) and i use pure telnet there to play.

Hrm, best is to learn how to reeq fast first.

what should be illegal is speaking in native languages actually shorter then English, suppose MUME were translated into one of those, omg, unfair unfair

Yes, and greyslimyrockwall is a single button on the Chinese logogrammic keyboard.